UKC Forums - Sucess Rate Poll

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Posted by hellcat on 09-07-2007 06:01 PM:

Sucess Rate Poll

Lets find out what our real life experience has been. Lets say success mean a dog makes a solid hound. A solid hound will Start a cold track, Run the track with good speed, Bay a bear or lion. And Stay treed untill you get there. Lets make this about what you have seen Not what you think it should be,
Jess

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Posted by hellcat on 09-07-2007 07:11 PM:

22 looks and One vote !!!!!!!!!!!
don't be shy
Jess

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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Posted by Melanie H. on 09-07-2007 07:35 PM:

The dogs that I first starting hunting with... 75%..... All the same line of dogs.. I have hunted with probably about 30 different dogs that were all half brother/sister from about 5 different litters off one old dog.....

I have since tried other lines of dogs to see if "the grass is greener on the other side".... I am running about 30% or so....

I think the grass is plenty green where I started

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

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Posted by jackbob42 on 09-07-2007 09:19 PM:

Well , being as I'm not a breeder , I can tell you only what I've seen over the years. Now , keep in mind , these are all colors , makes , and models. And owned and handled by about 20 different people.
About 1 in 10 that I've seen go on to make a good , solid bear dog.
I've seen alot of young ones start out good , but by their third year , they're done.

Alot of breeders will say it's the training. But , I've never seen a trainer yet that can " train " a dog to " want " to catch a bear. Or anything else for that matter. It's got to come from inside.
Just like a pro football or basketball player. You can't " make " them want to do it , they have to want it. All you can do is give them the opportunity.

Most dog breeders are like car salesman.........
Buy one of mine , it'll be the best you ever had !

I read one time that EVERY pup out of the famous plott cross of Butch and Jill made bear dogs. I only seen one go and when he was turned loose on a bear , he went and stood at the truck. Kinda made me wonder just " how " good the rest were. LOL

Like I said , not many. But , then again , I've never hunt with a whole litter either. Maybe I only got to hunt with the bad ones.

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Posted by Travis Stirek on 09-07-2007 10:57 PM:

I would say I have seen somewhere between 50-75%.jackbob I don't say its the training.I say its the hunting.Hard hunters give the pup more opportunity to go on.I totally agree about, you can't train for desire.I always say give me the trashy ones that will BURN a deer or coyote for hours or the one that may be a little tree happy(Sure I'd rather they were straight.)I'll take that ten or eleven month old that will run a deer for five hours to catch over the one that bawls around for 15-30 minutes and is back in the road.Same with one that may grab a tree alittle quick when he's young as long as it hasn't been let go as to become a problem,I'd rather "train" him to check himself than to have to beg him and all that other cr^p we've all done trying to get one to tree that never will.You can train them to back off but you can't make them want to.

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Posted by hellcat on 09-08-2007 12:19 AM:

NO !!!!

Right or Wrong Answer's
Just what you have seen.
Good Honest Opinions so far.
Jess

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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Posted by matt mcdonnell(kc) on 09-08-2007 01:50 PM:

i breed and train all my own hounds, so i`ll say 75%. i totaly agree with travis.

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Posted by Redwood Hounds on 09-08-2007 03:46 PM:

I'd say it's about a 50% chance. A "Solid" dog to me is not a Great dog. It's a dog with some holes (as they all have) that you can deal with, yet still catches you game. No dogs perfect, not even the great ones. What's great to one, would be another man's cull...

Not sure how a cold nose makes a dog a "solid bear dog." I like treeing game now, not 8 hours later, not tomarrow. I don't care if a dog finishes 90% of every cold trail he starts. I don't have patients.... I like knowing the second my dog opens his mouth, that its buisness. We're gonna see a bear in a tree, if not it's not because "he was cold trailing." I don't want em so hot nosed they have to hear brush snapping. But I feel that is one trait that is a personal opinion more than a "must have for a solid bear dog."

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Posted by pete on 09-09-2007 10:55 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by jackbob42

About 1 in 10 that I've seen go on to make a good , solid bear dog.

i would buy a GOOD SOLID beardog -- from jackbob -

A solid hound will Start a cold track, Run the track with good speed, Bay a bear or lion. And Stay treed untill you get there

alone or with company?????????

do you train him alone--- or with a good pack-???

i voted 50 % - before i really read and thought about your definition of solid ---

i could go along with 50 or 75% -- if solid means usable or pack dog ,

if you have one pup and you have to train him on bear alone-- -- id guess you might go thru more than ten -- lol

if you can run same pups with a good pack for a couple seasons ---show them lots of game --
you might get 75 % useable dogs-

i think there are more pups that dont make it --- because of lack of hunting , than pups that dont make it because they arent born to do it---- if seasons closed and they are sitting home in kennel --you missed it -

Posted by Majestic Tree H on 09-09-2007 12:54 PM:

Good Post Pete !!

If I lived closer to Eddies (live Bear Bay) in Cowpens S.C. and Lived next door to Pete in VT. and if I trained the whole litter I would say at least 80%+... But that would be in a perfict world..
Their Are good trainers out their and if a pup gets in their hands well they have a 90% chance of making it.. Their is one in Victoria B.C. "Dave Smith" now he can produce a high % out of your Stock !! But I watched Dave work one Female for 2 years before she made it and now she is a Great Lion or Bear hound. But Dave also lives in an area that you can just drive down the road and drop hounds on bear just standing on the side of the road !!

How a pup is raised is atleast 35%+ of the out come to Their Full Potential.. You have to know when to turn on the right Switch in that pups Head !! If you miss the timing well you drop the %.

Then their is the Other Side, the ones that "I dont mess with the pups till their over a year old" and the ones "I have tried every type of hound out their and none are any good" These are the Fokes that Drop your % down to 10%..

When you Sell to the Unknown Public your % Drops ..

We know of one Switch that will up the %.. And that is the Coon Pen .. The pups and one adult (Usuly our Golden Retriver) turned loose in the Coon Pen and if a pup gets bit its alowed 20 to 30 sec. to shake of the blood and get right back on the coon. If this happens well that pup is ready for anything with hard Game drive..

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Posted by jackbob42 on 09-09-2007 03:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
....

Then their is the Other Side, the ones that "I dont mess with the pups till their over a year old" and the ones "I have tried every type of hound out their and none are any good" These are the Fokes that Drop your % down to 10%..

When you Sell to the Unknown Public your % Drops ..

We know of one Switch that will up the %.. And that is the Coon Pen .. The pups and one adult (Usuly our Golden Retriver) turned loose in the Coon Pen and if a pup gets bit its alowed 20 to 30 sec. to shake of the blood and get right back on the coon. If this happens well that pup is ready for anything with hard Game drive..

That must be what I'm doing wrong , I don't have a coon or bear pen. I just hunt my dogs in the woods. Just like they're really going hunting.
I don't wait till they're a year old though.
The last 2 litters I raised , I kept 2 pups from each litter. 1 died real young , the other 3 went on to be good coondogs. The sire and dam did well on both coon and bear.
One pup started treeing his own coon at 7 months old. Another one was treeing her own coon by 6 months. And the third (2nd litter) , because of our quiet season , was put in the woods for the first time at 8 months old. The old dog ( pups mother ) struck and the pup opened with her. They split and the pup caught and killed a kitten coon on the ground. The old dog went on and treed the sow.
I also raised/trained the mother and none of them had been messed with a caged coon , hide , or drag of any kind.
I tried the pups on bear and they didn't want no part of them. I turned 2 of the pups loose on a bear as it came down. When it hit the ground and the other dogs jumped on it , they went in to see what was going on and then went out and treed a coon.
Needless to say , they went down the road to coonhunters.

I don't want no dog that I have to beg to do their job. And I ain't gonna feed 20 dogs to make a bear pack. Not when I know I can do it with 3 or 4.

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Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Posted by hellcat on 09-10-2007 05:20 PM:

Train-ability is a Factor

I think more good prospects are Hurt, by Trainers ?
Than are helped.
I don't think you can train Speed/Nose/Desire/Athletic Ability.
You can break them from running trash.
You can Over Handle a dog.
You can be impatient and fail to give a young dog the time needed. < my worst problem>
However this poll is about results, Not methods.
Jess

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Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Posted by Bear on 09-10-2007 06:12 PM:

Re: Train-ability is a Factor

quote:
Originally posted by hellcat
I think more good prospects are Hurt, by Trainers ?

Good Trainer - someone that can bring out what's in a dog without screwin them up!!!!!

Posted by hellcat on 09-10-2007 06:15 PM:

Sam

I would hate to see a poll about the % of Trainers who are Good !!!! lol
Jess

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Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Posted by Bear on 09-10-2007 06:20 PM:

Re: Sam

quote:
Originally posted by hellcat
I would hate to see a poll about the % of Trainers who are Good !!!! lol
Jess

ME TOO!!! LOL

Posted by Nolte on 09-10-2007 07:12 PM:

I find it interesting the different traits that people find important.

Dogs that rig and run hard are fairly common here, Cold trailers are not.

I also would have picked a smaller percentage if it was available for a dog with this definition of "solid"

All I know is what I've seen in WI and our conditions. Very few dogs can jump a tough cold track, have enough speed to keep up with the lead pack when jumped, stay bayed/caught, and tree until you get there (whenever that may be).

A much, much lower percentage can do this all by themselves. It takes a heck of a dog to stay on a tough bear by itself. Granted no-one tries to have a dog solo on a bear like that, but it happens. The good ones hang on long enough for you to get in there and get them help. I can't fathom a way to "train" that.

I'm with Jackbob on this. I might show a critter to get the dogs fired up, maybe let them try to run it. I'll also try to get them on a easy couple to get there feet wet. After that it's all OTJ (On The JOb) training. The more chances you get at the job, the better your chance of figuring out how to do it well.

Posted by Melanie H. on 09-10-2007 07:30 PM:

I think everyone is looking at it for the area they are in.. That is the way I did.. My "cold nose" might not be someone else's definition of one. And I am looking at the dogs as cat dogs (not superior bobcat dogs, but solid cat dogs)

If we could run bears where I live I would know that it really isn't too difficult for a single dog to put one up a tree. Not something I would want to do (run a single bear dog)... but do-able. but again, if we could run bears, I would imagine the majority of them would pop up pretty easy and very few "mean' ones...

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

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Posted by hellcat on 09-10-2007 08:18 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nolte
[B]I find it interesting the different traits that people find important.
Dogs that rig and run hard are fairly common here, Cold trailers are not.
I also would have picked a smaller percentage if it was available for a dog with this definition of "solid"

{QOUTE} Originally posted by hellcat
{B} A solid hound will Start a cold track, Run the track with good speed, Bay a bear or lion.
Jess
Nolte, I agree about Cold trailing. I did include that in what I called a Solid Hound.
Jess

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Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Posted by Curby on 09-10-2007 08:23 PM:

Good posts.

Im might be hunting hounds that Pete, JackBob, and Nolte consider culls lol.

But honestly a good houndsman does more evaluating than training (except handling). Unless your starting from scratch, ur pack is the trainer. You just do some fine tuning and get em out and on game with the seasoned hounds. Then cull from there, without prejudice.

Id hate to have to start from scratch.. especially for bearhounds.

"I much rather breed and look for naturals rather then just trainable ones" I was told something to that effect years back by Pete I believe.

Posted by Nolte on 09-10-2007 11:39 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by ladycathunter
My "cold nose" might not be someone else's definition of one. And I am looking at the dogs as cat dogs (not superior bobcat dogs, but solid cat dogs)

If we could run bears where I live I would know that it really isn't too difficult for a single dog to put one up a tree. Not something I would want to do (run a single bear dog)... but do-able. but again, if we could run bears, I would imagine the majority of them would pop up pretty easy and very few "mean' ones...

I've ran bear that were easy. Get them jumped and they treed right quick. Nothing too it. It doesn't take a crackerjack dog to be a part of that. From my experience areas of very light pressure have more of these (not that there are many areas like that in WI).

I've also ran a bunch that were just runners. Burn up the country and might stop for a little stint before going up. You seem to get more of these in areas that are hunted hard.

Some bear don't want to run and would just rather walk/bay and stay caught. They might run the dogs a little, but overall they just don't want to tree. Gritty dogs might tree these or they might not. A SOLID dog HAS to stick on the bear like this. It doesn't have to climb all over it, but it's got to be in there fairly tight. Otherwise it's just another dog that just runs bear. If it will stay on one of these by itself for an extended period of time, it's usually better than a solid dog in my book.

A handfull of bear are ornery mean pricks that are just plain tough. These seperate out dogs pretty darn quick. They constantly are putting the run on the dogs and have NO backup. It is best to only try to run these when you are going to kill them. Otherwise it can get expensive real quick. I've seen some solid dogs not want any part of this type of action on certain bear. Others they do just fine.

Like Pete wrote one time. "I don't explain it, I just report it".

Now if we are talking cat dogs. It's a real low number of dogs that make a solid cat hound around here. It's probably because most guys in these parts use bear dogs to run cats, so they are handicapped from the get-go. A few dogs run cats, some of those are cat dogs ,and a real tiny amount make good cat dogs. A number far, far lower than dogs that make good bear dogs.

Curby
I'm not so sure about that. I've got a few pretty sorry dogs that I keep giving chances. They'd probably make yours look like allstars.

Posted by Melanie H. on 09-10-2007 11:54 PM:

Exactly!! Everyone idea of a solid dog is going to be different to where they live to how the animals behave in the area they hunt. Can't say one person is wrong... maybe for a different area, but not for theirs.... I sure would like to go see some bear dogs at work.. Not the sorry excuse for cat dogs that we put on bears

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

Posted by Travis Stirek on 09-11-2007 01:12 AM:

I guess I'm different.My idea of a solid dog is one that is not going to embarass me no matter where I go to hunt.If i'm hunting at home or if I am traveling to Wisconsin or North Carolina or down to California.If my dogs look like crap I'm not gonna use the excuse that,"they just aren't in their kinda country."If they have the heart and desire it don't matter to me where their at.Success rates to me,tie into not having to be hunted in a specialized setting.As I said in the beginning of this post amount of time hunted not trained I believe is the biggest factor(besides breeding)LOL

Posted by Melanie H. on 09-11-2007 01:51 AM:

Well I don't think they should embarass you.... But I sure believe if I take my dogs to Florida it sure the heck is going to take them a while to adjust to the swamp, humidity etc....

Guess what I am trying to say and for some reason it sure isn't coming out right...... One person's idea of a solid dog might not be anothers..... My idea of a solid dog isn't going to be the same as someone elses.. I don't need a gritty top notch solid bear dog because I need a solid cat dog.. And in my mind those dogs are different....

Maybe that came across the way I meant it If not... I give up...

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

Posted by Grub on 09-11-2007 11:49 PM:

This is a hard one to vote on. I had a couple solid dogs in the beginning then I went through six pups that were less than stellar. Got another good one and he got killed young. Went through some more then finally started getting some good pups. As time passed I became more selective and weeded through them a bit faster. I think not taking the time to finish them is a real problem. I gave some dogs way to much time, but I also kept one longer than I thought I should have and is still getting better at five. He has turned into a really nice dog. Of the last six dogs I have owned five have made dogs. Perhaps due to better breeding and hunting more. I think I am on a roll now and have found couple of very reliable sources for some dandy pups.

Posted by hellcat on 09-12-2007 06:58 PM:

It seems that

82% of us have had a 50% chance or less of getting a solid hound with a new pup. I wonder what happens to the 50% that do not make solid hounds ?
Jess

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Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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