UKC Forums - Repeat Crosses....how often do they work?

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-- Repeat Crosses....how often do they work? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928305231)

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-28-2013 09:18 PM:

Repeat Crosses....how often do they work?

Lets take a closer, fact based look at repeat crosses and see if we can find evidence that they produce just as good of pups as first time crosses.
I have studied hundreds of these crosses over the years and I don't believe I have ever found a case where a repeat cross produced equal or a greater number of titled dogs than a first time cross.
Lets only talk about crosses that produced titled dogs....that way we keep personal opinions from clouding the facts. Lets talk about well known or widely known 1st time crosses that produced at least 2 or more titled dogs and then when the cross was repeated...the 2nd or 3rd time crosses produced equal, or more titled dogs than the first cross. I do not know of a single instance where this has been the case so I would sure love to see some proof of it.
My theory (which is the same as a few others and not original) is that repeat crosses do not reproduce as many great dogs as were seen in the first cross. Now, this is not to say that repeat crosses do not produce any great dogs or that those dogs are not just as good or better than those from the first cross....just that they are fewer...if any in repeat cross litters.
Lots of people make repeat"proven" crosses. After all....to a potential buyer....its should be a sure thing, right? But I would argue that the facts do not support this and if repeat crosses are just as good.....they should produce equal to or even more titled dogs than the first cross.....so lets see some proof....some hard facts, not guessing. Names of dogs we can check against records. I would love to be wrong on this....but I need to see proof....not opinions.
This is not a new topic.....repeat crosses have been made for 100 years so their should be plenty of proof from all breeds....so lets see some.
I am betting that if some cases are found.....they will be far outweighed by the number of times each year that repeat crosses are made.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-28-2013 10:28 PM:

Ok, so how do you explain females who reproduce above average dogs out of every cross when mated with different males? Lets look at Outlaw Jessie or Moonlight Kate. After Jessie's cross on Timberjack produced 2 gr.nt.ch. and 2 nt.ch. if that cross was above the average for the breed (which it would be hard to argue otherwise) why then did her next cross on Burning Ben produce 2 gr.nt.ch. and 2 nt.ch.'s.....would that not also be considered an above average cross as well?
And if Kate's 1st cross on pepper produced 2 gr.nt.ch.'s and some nt.ch.'s and that is considered an above average cross, why then did Kate produce 3 gr.nt.ch.'s out of Ace in a later cross....and more nt.ch.'s and gr.nt.ch.'s in other crosses? Should her average have been pulled back down in subsequent litters that she reproduced?
Just curious and not arguing. This is one of those things in breeding that just seems counter intuitive and alot of opinions are based on what seems to make sense...but the facts dont support it.
Seems to me that if a females average is going to be pulled back into a certain range it would not matter if she was bred to the same male or a different male. But some females just keep on reproducing above average pups when bred to different males.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-28-2013 10:41 PM:

I would like to know about the Rat x Raven cross from the Rabble guys.
It has to be one of the top 5 crosses for titled dogs in the redbone breed, but those dogs are from different litters I think. Does anyone have the numbers and titles of dogs from each cross so we can compare 1st cross to 2nd, 3rd,4th, and 5th crosses and see if they got better as far as number of titled dogs in repeat crosses or if the first cross produced the most titles of any of the repeat crosses.
Also, what about the Rocky x Maggie cross and some other well known crosses that were repeated?

Posted by Bobby Stevens on 02-28-2013 11:47 PM:

i asked russell how many times he made the ice x pepper cross his answer was 5 times but i have no clue as to how many titled offspring those 5 crosses reproduced but he never blinked he bred them everytime she came in???

i hunted with a few of the dogs out of this cross and they were all out of different litters and seen each tree wild coons with my own eyes can i say one done it any better than the other ? no.. mouths were similar though ,

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Posted by rickp on 03-01-2013 12:02 AM:

So if you make a cross and their all dud's .You should make the cross again cause it's bound to be better ? LOL

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 12:15 AM:

Rick, it the numbers and averages theory were accurate....you would think that might be the case wouldn't you?....lol
I am still waiting to see some definitive proof that repeat crosses produce just as many great pups as well known 1st time crosses that produced several titled dogs.....
I didn't make this thread without doing alot of homework first

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 12:32 AM:

Thats why I wanted to start by only looking at well known crosses that produced several titled dogs. Heck, I know of many crosses that were repeated every 6 months.... before the first cross was even old enough to prove what they would be....stands to reason that there would be a few of these that maybe the 1st cross were all duds but the 2nd or third might have produced a few titled dogs...doesn't it? Where are the examples? Doesn't even have to be from this breed....show me some from any breed.
The fact is repeat crosses are made all the time by people who own stud dogs and either own the female who produced a good litter the first time....or they purchased her later to breed back to the same male. Probably happens a hundred times a year across all breeds....so why is it soo hard to find examples of it working equal or better than first time crosses???

Posted by wade lucking on 03-01-2013 12:34 AM:

Here is my opinion why repeats crosses don't turn out in most cases. The first cross turns out. 6 titled dogs out of 8. So second cross is made but pups are more money. Litter has 8 pups. Right off the bat count the females out to be titled as they were bought for breeding purposes. Lets say four females, so that leaves 4 makes which 2 are bought from off breed people who have attentions of switching. But when they don't do what there breeds does they give up on it. That leaves 2 more males which the owner of the litter keeps which usually titles out. And 1 male left that gets sold to a hide hunter with intentions of comp hunting. Now in reality all these probably are just as good as the first cross just didn't get the chance to prove it. Again just my opinion.

So i I think how the repeat crosses get placed is huge for success. On crosses where repeat crosses such as rat and raven, rocky and Maggie, Amos burning Ben and Jessie. Twister and music, take a good look at the guys behind them.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 12:37 AM:

Thanks for your opinion on why you think it happens...but I really want to see some fact based data.
Here is some interesting fact based data about the cross Breanna is from.
It was made 3 times and her and her gr.nt.ch. sister britt are from the first cross and the crosses are 6 mo. Apart. I have heard of one other dog from the repeat crosses that is making a nice dog and I believe she might have a 1st place win. I know alot of the other pups were placed in the right hands of redbone people...but it looks like the repeat crosses are not going to make great titled dogs like those from the first cross. Anyone else have examples like this one?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 01:02 AM:

Does anyone find it interesting that most dogs high on the reproducer list didn't get there by making repeat crosses...but by making different crosses? Wouldn't that be a fast track to the top of the list for a dog that has already produced at least one outstanding litter from a particular female? Why not just breed her to that same male till the wheels fall off?
I wonder why John Biggert picks a different male to breed the #2 reproducer Pepper Ann to each time? He is a pretty successful breeder....

Posted by Butterbean26 on 03-01-2013 01:07 AM:

A little off Topic but if this is the case with repeated crosses, Is there a such thing as PROVEN CROSSES...

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Posted by Butterbean26 on 03-01-2013 01:09 AM:

I do find this topic very interesting...

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 01:12 AM:

Well, to me a proven cross is one that has been proven to work.....I just dont understand why nearly every proven cross turns out to be a first time cross. There are very,very few repeat crosses that even come close to producing the number of titled dogs that the first cross produced. But I think the words "proven cross" sure has sold alot of pups...and for higher prices than the first cross over the years.....without hardly any fact based proof that those repeat cross litters will be anywhere close to as good as the first cross litter.

Posted by timber hunter on 03-01-2013 01:17 AM:

You might want to talk

With Jack Camden in Lyons Indiana. He made a cross in the late 80`s and early 90`s, 5 times and every single pup in every litter turned out to be a coondog!!! John

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 01:19 AM:

Re: You might want to talk

quote:
Originally posted by timber hunter
With Jack Camden in Lyons Indiana. He made a cross in the late 80`s and early 90`s, 5 times and every single pup in every litter turned out to be a coondog!!! John

lets judge by titles so we don't have to take anyones word or opinions....surely there would be some examples of titled dogs out there...right?

Posted by Butterbean26 on 03-01-2013 01:26 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Well, to me a proven cross is one that has been proven to work.....I just dont understand why nearly every proven cross turns out to be a first time cross. There are very,very few repeat crosses that even come close to producing the number of titled dogs that the first cross produced. But I think the words "proven cross" sure has sold alot of pups...and for higher prices than the first cross over the years.....without hardly any fact based proof that those repeat cross litters will be anywhere close to as good as the first cross litter.

I agree i think the term PROVEN CROSS has been a sale's pitch for years. I can't think of any cross where the 2nd or 3rd cross had the success as the first concerning titles. I would like to know how many titled dogs came out of the first Twister & Music cross and how many came after.

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Posted by Tim Figg on 03-01-2013 01:34 AM:

this is the dumbest thing i have read on here and they have been some real dumb ones. a dog is born with the same genes it will die with. it wont change during its life. a repeat cross will produce the same each time. if the dogs turn out different its probably the way it was hunted and trained or who has it. them genes aint going to change. u need to talk to dave dean a true coon hound breeder or some one like him. jmo tim

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 01:46 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Figg
this is the dumbest thing i have read on here and they have been some real dumb ones. a dog is born with the same genes it will die with. it wont change during its life. a repeat cross will produce the same each time. if the dogs turn out different its probably the way it was hunted and trained or who has it. them genes aint going to change. u need to talk to dave dean a true coon hound breeder or some one like him. jmo tim

See....I ask for facts or examples for proof...and all I get is opinions.
Was I unclear on what I am asking for? Maybe people who believe things without any proof of them are dumb???
Thanks for starting the negativity Tim....I guess thats all some guys can offer when others are trying to have adult conversations and find real answers....
How does that explain identical twins...raised in same house in same way turning out quite differently?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 01:55 AM:

Guys this question isn't meant to point fingers or make anyone look dumb. We all should learn from past mistakes...not keep making them. I am simply trying to get an answer to the following....
Repeat crosses are just as good as 1st time crosses...fact or fiction?

Posted by timber hunter on 03-01-2013 01:56 AM:

Ok, the female was on the historical list for a while and she produced a dog that won the Purina Race redbone part 1 year. GrNITECH RED HOT MOLLY , I owned 2, I made nite champion and Jack owned a 1 that made nite ch. And every pup in every litter turned out to be a coondog! Would you like the names of all that were titled???

Hello!!

Posted by timber hunter on 03-01-2013 01:58 AM:

I totally agree with Tim Figg

"a dog is born with the same genes it will die with. it wont change during its life. a repeat cross will produce the same each time. if the dogs turn out different its probably the way it was hunted and trained or who has it. them genes aint going to change. u need to talk to dave dean a true coon hound breeder or some one like him. jmo tim"

Thanks John

Posted by Travis O. on 03-01-2013 02:01 AM:

I believe to get the proof you're wanting to see, you would have to look at stud in high demand. For example if Mojo (walkerdog) produced an outstanding litter with several pups achieving titles, if the cross was made again, serious competition hunters would buy the pups and title them again and a again and again. I love redbones but it's difficult to get a litter of pups in serious competition hunters hands. Doing it once is a miracle but doing it twice might be impossible.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 02:05 AM:

Re: I totally agree with Tim Figg

quote:
Originally posted by timber hunter
"a dog is born with the same genes it will die with. it wont change during its life. a repeat cross will produce the same each time. if the dogs turn out different its probably the way it was hunted and trained or who has it. them genes aint going to change. u need to talk to dave dean a true coon hound breeder or some one like him. jmo tim"

Thanks John

Where is the proof john? Without proof that theory is just a theory? I have found hundreds of example to show it does not work...just asking for a few that shows that it does.....it should be that hard...maybe Tim can get a few from Dave Dean since he doesn't think we have any knowlegable redbone breeders???
Lets stick to the facts that can be proven....not opinions.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 02:07 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Travis O.
I believe to get the proof you're wanting to see, you would have to look at stud in high demand. For example if Mojo (walkerdog) produced an outstanding litter with several pups achieving titles, if the cross was made again, serious competition hunters would buy the pups and title them again and a again and again. I love redbones but it's difficult to get a litter of pups in serious competition hunters hands. Doing it once is a miracle but doing it twice might be impossible.

its actually easier to get get them into the right hands because now its a "proven" cross.....so why cant we find results to match opinions?

Posted by Tim Figg on 03-01-2013 02:09 AM:

i agree with you travis o. thats what i was saying

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