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Posted by Nate Ratcliff on 03-23-2013 12:18 AM:

national days

Our asso. has changed the format for over all high score dog and oppsex.LIKE OR DISLIKE ?It is goin to be if you miss thursday nite 400- off the bat miss fri 400- miss sat 400- I dont like it fact of the matter if you cant make it thur you might as well forget about over all.
I have had several conversations with a board member who i will leave anonomous he can come forward if he wants.We talked about a hunt off.Take 8 high males and 8 high females on thursday they hunt late round thurs.Take the same on friday you would end up with a 4 dog cast for sat of males and females then you take high male and high female to hunt off an hour late sat nite of course no championship points but who cares if your in it for over all.All late rounds one hour non hunting judge and guide.JUST THROWIN IT OUT THERE WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?

Posted by Sawblade on 03-23-2013 01:10 AM:

the reasons

It seems that we are sometimes making it harder on everyone in order to make sure some people can't win. The reason for the rule clarification was because not everyone understood how the winner was picked. To be honest I really don't think we changed the old rule as much as we defined it much better.
The reason behind the rule is what is interesting to me. First off the old ruling has always said if you withdraw you take -400 points , if you get scratched you take -400 points. and now to clarify it ,if you don't even hunt one night you take -400 points. Some people hate the idea of someone with a big lead setting back and not hunting the last night and winning. But it has always been 3 nights beats 2 nights however I believe we had a year were that might not have happened. So we needed to get it all written out. Personally I understand the way it is now but I know that there are bunch of people that don't come until Friday night, now they really have no chance of ever winning it . I believe that may have taken the original reason a little to far. We got a lot of ways you can't win. and now the only way you can win is to hunt all 3 nights. I never hunt all three. so I guess I will never win it. To give someone -400 points when they haven't even arrived at the hunt seems kind of crazy to me. I would be good with 0 points when one chooses not to hunt and let the highest score win. Win a 3 night winner beating out all 2 night winners reguardless of score.

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Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
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Sawblade Ribbon,

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 01:11 AM:

If you went the hunt off route starting on thursday....would that not creat the same problem for those who can't make it thursday? I plan for the entire 3 nites but I do like the hunt off idea...but hate the idea of only hunting an hour in the final round. Would rather hunt two 2 hr rounds or two 1 hour and a half rounds. 2nd round casts are sometimes hard to bring in plus points in only an hr when coons are often laid up by then.

__________________
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Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
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Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 01:20 AM:

Why not take the two highest combined scores by males after the early round on saturday from all three nights of hunting and the same for the two highest females and then send them back out to hunt it off in a four dog cast late saturday for 90 mins to determine the champion and high opp sex. Then you dont have double rounds on thurs and fri.
Isn't this how they do it at hunts like walker days and grand american?

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-23-2013 01:23 AM:

Hmm

Does this mean I will have 1200- if I dont go at all????? That is terrible... Lots of folks cant make it to the thursday night hunt, you take me, Im 1000 miles from Holmesville... If I went Id have to leave on Tuesday to be able to hunt Thursday... This is troubling..

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 01:32 AM:

I like the change....and really like the hunt off or elimination structure idea to determine the winner. I have never liked overall winners being determined by highest score because it sometimes promotes dishonesty. If you win your cast and didn't get into as many coon as another cast...it doesn't mean that other dog is better...just lucky to have drawn a better guide. A hunt off between the top 8 or top 4 males and females gives those dogs a chance to show which one is better in the same cast under the same guide....and I like that idea. Many other hunts are going to a late round hunt off to determine the overall winner and I think it is a step we should take as well.

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-23-2013 02:06 AM:

the hunt off

Its a great Idea!!!!!!!!!! I remember hunting at a Satellite club about 100 miles from Mishicot (seemed like it ,not sure the actual mileage), 2hrs to get there and if you won (I didnt,I withdrew and headed home saturday night) it would put you back at the club in the early morning hours and that would make it good for the cold nosed dogs to tree those coon after daylight broke... LOL , Seriously, how would you control it to where all casts could be back in time to hunt it off?? I guess for those who drive 45 minutes to hunt ,it would be no problem, for those that had to drive to a satellite club that won their cast and missed the late round cast they'd just get kicked out of the running for the overall???? next thing posted will be "flip a coin to determine the late round winners"???? I dont think it will work if there is a big turn out without dropping the hunt time... Sounds like the Other Kennel club to me... Just some thoughts from a 1000 miles away...

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Posted by Jack Bingham on 03-23-2013 02:25 AM:

Giving a dog 400- just because they don't even sign up is B.S. just another way to make it easier for some to win. Lets punish the working guy that might not be able to get Thursday off work. With taking 400-ur right off the bat why even bother to show up.

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Posted by Nate Ratcliff on 03-23-2013 02:45 AM:

Its just an idea they prob wont ever happen.I like the hunt off it moves the consistant cast winner on to be over all high score or not you get the top hound of the week end.I hunt all three nites but could be a chance i wouldnt make it on thurs due to work.And i dont want to be handed 400- right off that my hound didnt earn...........Kelly that is what i understand on the change.I say we work together to get a hunt off going.DETAILS DETAILS
THANKS FOR THE REPLYS
NATE

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 02:49 AM:

Re: the hunt off

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
Its a great Idea!!!!!!!!!! I remember hunting at a Satellite club about 100 miles from Mishicot (seemed like it ,not sure the actual mileage), 2hrs to get there and if you won (I didnt,I withdrew and headed home saturday night) it would put you back at the club in the early morning hours and that would make it good for the cold nosed dogs to tree those coon after daylight broke... LOL , Seriously, how would you control it to where all casts could be back in time to hunt it off?? I guess for those who drive 45 minutes to hunt ,it would be no problem, for those that had to drive to a satellite club that won their cast and missed the late round cast they'd just get kicked out of the running for the overall???? next thing posted will be "flip a coin to determine the late round winners"???? I dont think it will work if there is a big turn out without dropping the hunt time... Sounds like the Other Kennel club to me... Just some thoughts from a 1000 miles away...

Preston, every pkc hunt is set up for early and late rounds and they work just fine. Sure some of the late rounds run close to daylight....but the coons run all night and your right....it does take a really good dog to tree coons that late....but isn't that the point....for the champion of the hunt to prove it is best on the easy....and the tough to tree coons? I like the idea of a hunt off. In pkc hunts they usually have the deadline by 2am or so and with just one cast hunting late you can use a guide who can take them close to the club so there is no trouble getting the hunt in.

Posted by Nate Ratcliff on 03-23-2013 02:53 AM:

EXACTLY SHANE WE COULD MAKE IT WORK

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-23-2013 02:54 AM:

Yes sir

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Giving a dog 400- just because they don't even sign up is B.S. just another way to make it easier for some to win. Lets punish the working guy that might not be able to get Thursday off work. With taking 400-ur right off the bat why even bother to show up.

I agree with this statement totally... And "If" thats the way its gonna be a NRD count me out... Wife and 2 kids + a Job... Those things are more important than having to take a week off just to hunt 3 nights.

I thought of this, in UKC you have to have a TOTAL score of Plus points to be a cast winner.... What "IF" there were not enough cast winners to have this "HUNT OFF" If you go to Least Minus that doesnt sound good to me either... Some may ask why, my answer is because I like that you have to see a real coon and have plus points to be considered a winner... Thats what "I" like about UKC... It makes sense to only win by treeing coon, not by having less minus. If you tree "one" coon and you eat 8 minutes and then your dog leaves a tree... You didnt win here in UKC, or you dont get a cast win because your dog got in less trouble... Just my thoughts on the subject

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 02:55 AM:

How bout to be fair to everyone....they take the best two out of three possible cast win scores? That way for people who can only hunt friday and saturday...they have just as good a chance of winning overall. If someone hunts all three nights....only their two best cast win scores count and the 3rd score would drop off and count neither for or against the other two scores? Wouldn't that be fair? But I still think the top few dogs should hunt it off in a final cast either way to determine the overall winner and opp sex.

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-23-2013 03:02 AM:

Re: Re: the hunt off

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Preston, every pkc hunt is set up for early and late rounds and they work just fine. Sure some of the late rounds run close to daylight....but the coons run all night and your right....it does take a really good dog to tree coons that late....but isn't that the point....for the champion of the hunt to prove it is best on the easy....and the tough to tree coons? I like the idea of a hunt off. In pkc hunts they usually have the deadline by 2am or so and with just one cast hunting late you can use a guide who can take them close to the club so there is no trouble getting the hunt in.

If I wanted to hunt like described above id go to the competing Kennel club that everyone seems to want to turn UKC into... I choose not to.... And could choose not to go to UKC's hunts "IF" it becomes like the "Other" Kennel club... This awarding Minus to a dog or handler for not being able to make a hunt on any of the 3 nights isnt right in my eyes... 3 cast wins beats 2 casts any way you look at it, but if you hunt and have a dead cast and a total score of zero you got an REAL advantage over a person who couldnt make it 1 night for whatever reason and that person got awarded 400- because of it...

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Posted by Nate Ratcliff on 03-23-2013 03:07 AM:

ISNT THE UKC WORLD HUNT RUN THE SAME WAY AS THIS FORMAT

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-23-2013 03:14 AM:

Heres a thought

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
How bout to be fair to everyone....they take the best two out of three possible cast win scores? That way for people who can only hunt friday and saturday...they have just as good a chance of winning overall. If someone hunts all three nights....only their two best cast win scores count and the 3rd score would drop off and count neither for or against the other two scores? Wouldn't that be fair? But I still think the top few dogs should hunt it off in a final cast either way to determine the overall winner and opp sex.

How about instead of awarding minus to those who couldnt make it to a hunt, and having a hunt off, why not just make it a 3 hr hunt time on each cast,each night... an extra hour will clear the way for the best dogs to win... keep the 400- and your scratched rule... That seems like a good idea to determine a better dog overall to me than anything else ive read on here so far... Im fixing to go tree a couple on the outside...

__________________
~I use my real name so im not confused with others~

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 03:14 AM:

Yes Nate.... if you make it through the zones....you HAVE to be there to hunt thursday night the next week....I don't know how all the working people do it...

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 03:19 AM:

Re: Re: Re: the hunt off

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
If I wanted to hunt like described above id go to the competing Kennel club that everyone seems to want to turn UKC into... I choose not to.... And could choose not to go to UKC's hunts "IF" it becomes like the "Other" Kennel club... This awarding Minus to a dog or handler for not being able to make a hunt on any of the 3 nights isnt right in my eyes... 3 cast wins beats 2 casts any way you look at it, but if you hunt and have a dead cast and a total score of zero you got an REAL advantage over a person who couldnt make it 1 night for whatever reason and that person got awarded 400- because of it...

Preston, some of the other breed days do the hunt off thing.....and so does the grand american....and autumn oaks. It is not another registries thing....it is and has been a ukc thing for several years now and most people prefer it to the champion being the dog with the highest single night score like autumn oaks used to be. That encouraged more cheating and scoring of things that "might" be a coon early in the night just so someone in the cast would have a chance at winning. The late round hunt off is a great idea I think.

Posted by Nate Ratcliff on 03-23-2013 03:23 AM:

I am saying as far as elimination it could work with not hunting thurs.and would give the ones who do an extra chance at fri late round.If they get beat in late round thur and make it to late round fri HUMMMMMM like it better already

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 03:26 AM:

Re: Heres a thought

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
How about instead of awarding minus to those who couldnt make it to a hunt, and having a hunt off, why not just make it a 3 hr hunt time on each cast,each night... an extra hour will clear the way for the best dogs to win... keep the 400- and your scratched rule... That seems like a good idea to determine a better dog overall to me than anything else ive read on here so far... Im fixing to go tree a couple on the outside...

How many people would have hunted for 3 hours last year in 100 degree heat?
I doubt that alot of older people or the really young youth hunters would. Elimination type hunts were the field is narrowed down to those with the most cast wins and then they hunt it off head to head is the best way to crown the best dog champion in my opinion. That way the winners hunt against the winners until there are is only one cast left and they are the four best dogs who have won the right to be in that final cast...then they hunt it off to crown the best of the best champion. That would be a titled that carries more respect and weight than the way we have done it in the past....in my opinion.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 03:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Nate Ratcliff
I am saying as far as elimination it could work with not hunting thurs.and would give the ones who do an extra chance at fri late round.If they get beat in late round thur and make it to late round fri HUMMMMMM like it better already

thats a great idea Nate....I think alot of folks would like that also.

Posted by Tim Trone on 03-23-2013 03:36 AM:

Why do a high score system. That just meens that your cast was put on coons. True? High scoring cast does not meen that that cast had better dogs. Why not have double cast or triple cast winners first that makes more since than anything. The true coon dogs will start to really show. Thats what is wrong . You have people that will go to their spots where they have buckets and then you will have cast go where they actually have to hunt for a coon.

Posted by Nate Ratcliff on 03-23-2013 03:49 AM:

I DONT KNOW ANYBODY THAT WOULD NOT GO BACK OUT IF THEY HAD A CHANCE TO WIN OVERALL

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-23-2013 04:35 AM:

thoughts

Why would anyone want to go back out and turn a pleasant hunt into an all night ordeal when as Tim said above, high scores are almost always an indication as to the better guide not the better coondog. Consistency ='s a better coondog. If you want to add hunt time just add it to the 2hours and let the mistakes by dogs and handlers eliminate the dogs and not make it even more appealing to hire a better guide than your opponents. That is the number one thing that usually gives an uneven advantage in the competition world. THE GUIDE. Oh well tho it makes no sense to talk to a brick wall. Or to post a persons personal feelings on any subject. Misting rain here and listening to a good ole Fireball dog makes me happy! Good luck with however yall work it out, if its to the advantage of some and not others the "others" can just let them win the game however they want to.

__________________
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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-23-2013 05:29 AM:

Re: thoughts

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
Why would anyone want to go back out and turn a pleasant hunt into an all night ordeal when as Tim said above, high scores are almost always an indication as to the better guide not the better coondog. Consistency ='s a better coondog. If you want to add hunt time just add it to the 2hours and let the mistakes by dogs and handlers eliminate the dogs and not make it even more appealing to hire a better guide than your opponents. That is the number one thing that usually gives an uneven advantage in the competition world. THE GUIDE. Oh well tho it makes no sense to talk to a brick wall. Or to post a persons personal feelings on any subject. Misting rain here and listening to a good ole Fireball dog makes me happy! Good luck with however yall work it out, if its to the advantage of some and not others the "others" can just let them win the game however they want to.

Because when you get down to the four best dogs....they should hunt it off to determine who is the best.....not which of the four with equal numbers of cast wins had the highest score....that would depend on the guide they had. You guys act like this is unchartered territory....all pkc hunts are like this and many of the biggest ukc hunts are doing this. Everyone wants to talk about how far behind the other breeds redbones are....well this is why.....we are always last to make the changes that everyone else has already made. The world hunts have double casts and so do other big hunts that crown and overall winner like autumn oaks, grand american, walker days etc. I have never ever seen a person in the running for overall champion ever say they would not go back out. If you want to be the best...you have to hunt against the best and the best win their way to the finals and then face off for the title in the same cast, with the same guide and with a non hunting judge. The dog who wins that way earns the respect he deserves and hushes all the excuses that people throw around otherwise. Its a great idea in my opinion.

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