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-- inbreeding (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928332219)

inbreeding

question for you lep guys that have been inbreeding and linebreeding for years. what have you found that produces your best dogs. was it brother to sister was it mother to son was it uncle to niece.iam sure your truth full answers will help many new breeders and old lep breeders. and which line of leps can take the inbreeding.i all so understand many inbred dogs will be your best reproducers when crossed with a different family of lep. thanks

I started inbreeding last year. Made a mother son cross and a brother sister cross. The pups are 14 and 16 months old right now so its hard to say for sure but I like the brother/sister cross a little better, I think. Time will tell, but so far I'm happy with the results of both. I have a long way to go but I think this is a good direction right now.
Nick

Why is it that leopard breeders are using more inbreeding and linebreeding than the other breeds?

__________________

hi nick. my days of breeding dogs are done. I just keep a couple pleasure dogs now.i have found with inbreeding over the years brother and sister crosses were the PUREST.the reason I posted the topic I have had lep guys pm me asking about inbreeding and I felt they could gain more from other lep guys that have been inbreeding the leps for generations. and if the lep guys are honest about what there doing to produce the top ones sharing this can move the breed ahead a lot faster in my mind.

Inbreeding...

Plenty of it going on here. Out of the Wick's Camo Jug and Sparklin Susie cross, of which there were four litters. There were two brothers that were bred to several sisters and daughters of sisters, each as follows:

Ganus' Hoosier blue Jug was bred to:
-Jug's Sparklin Rachel (3 times)
-Schulze's Siouxie (1 time)
-Ganus' Hoosier Gabby (3 or 4 times)
-Ganus' Hoosier Insane Jane (1 time)
-Ganus' Hoosier Abby (1 time)

Ganus' Hoosier Nailor was bred to:
-Jug's Sparklin Dottie (2 times)
-Ganus' Hoosier Insane Jane (1 time)
-Ganus' Hoosier Abby (1 time)

There were other successive crosses such as the Sport x Queen cross by Minten and more.

This line can take the heat of repeated inbreeding but only the the best of the crop.

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

NICE. lets take this a touch deeper. you folks that have been inbreeding for a spell what results have you got. also have yous noticed you inbreds. the females are coming out a touch smaller than mother and gran mother. and the inbred sons are coming out more stocky than there dad or grandfather. if you guys open up to each other the faster you will move the lep breed to GOLD AND MORE GOLD.the posts so far have been awesome for the readers and I except more to jump on this boat explaining how they got there champ from breeding..

Dito...

CC- Yes those things have occurred in my inbred dogs...smaller females, stockier males.

Mike- Factor in that genes can be influenced by sound and thoughts, both from the dogs and the owners. It sounds funny but it has been proven and measured in scientific analysis. Throw in the fact that litters are affected greatly by what is done with the bitch during the pregnancy. Pile on the inaccuracy of papers and you have yourself a mess. It's like when Harry Connic Jr. picked up an insurment at age ten compared to myself at age ten. He can do things I can not. There are breeders who can do things others can not and no wonder. There are so many things to consider.

Single registration is the single greatest roadblock to progress in a breed! The more I learn the more pure that statement becomes.

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

Re: Dito...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan McDonough
_ Single registration is the single greatest roadblock to progress in a breed! The more I learn the more pure that statement becomes.

---

thanks all now have you found a small percent of you inbred dog become more barkey on the chain etc. have you found a percent to more high strung than the parents or have you maintained the level headedness of the parents.dan.we must understand the PURPOSEof inbreeding. we bottle up the genes of that perfect dog. then we cross out the inbred dog to get the super dogs. so in the lep world that can be done to another lep I would prefer another line of proven leps for the cross. if there line bred or inbred even better. if you inbreed a line of dogs for many years they will become DUMB as a rock in the hunting dept. but never forget some of these INBREDS will be your golden reproducers in years to come.hey cory weres our old friend frog he always talked inbreeding I was expecting he to jump on this topic.i have inred dogs and racing pigeons for 50 years so I have learned a little I have always has a solft spot in my heart for the lep dogs. so if I can help in anyway on this open form don't be shy to ask me a question or two iam sure this also applies to dan etc. that have been inbreeding with great results.

?

Thanks, good post!
Michael, I had to read your post a couple times. great info.

I kept the runt of the brother sister cross. Jane is a small bobtail female with every trait I look for in a bobcat dog. She is on the hyper side and has some other minor faults, but only 16 months as well. If she makes it through are winter lion and bobcat season and becomes as good as I think she will I will breed her next year. My first choice would be her father. He is an exception bobcat dog with everything I'm looking for. Or is it time to start looking in other lines?

hi nick. just my two cents here. my biggest concern is the runt is the smallest of the litter. I have found over many years the biggest inbred females would produce a way higher percent of better dogs.nick certain lines can take the inbreeding a lot longer than others. my concern here when breeding her back to herdad many pups could come out to small to keep up in the deep snow.at the end of the day life is about learning and if you decide to breed her to her dad you will have learned much about the line of dogs your working with.in a short period of time.

Nick,

What was your reason for keeping the runt?

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

Thanks cc
Dan, I like a smaller 40 TO 50 lb dog for cat hunting. The smaller dogs in my litters turned out more cur like. Cat footed, athletic, fast. The big dogs do well in deep snow at first, but the small dogs never give up or slow down. I hunt off a snow cat half the time and the small dogs are easier to pull around and fit in the box.

Thanks cc
Dan, I like a smaller 40 TO 50 lb dog for cat hunting. The smaller dogs in my litters turned out more cur like. Cat footed, athletic, fast. The big dogs do well in deep snow at first, but the small dogs never give up or slow down. I hunt off a snow cat half the time and the small dogs are easier to pull around and fit in the box.

hi nick. can you detail why you like the brother and sister cross a touch better than the mother and son cross.also for you foks that are inbreeding keep this in the back of your mind. the super females will breed a way higher percent of super males than females. the super males will breed a way higher percent of super females. keep track of this for the coming years and you will see iam 99 percent correct.hey mike good to see your sailing with this topic.michale question for you please. have you ever bred brother to sister. then taken a pup from that litter and mated it back to the father, if so what were the results and how many turned out to be real good hunting dogs. thank you.dan d. were did you go.your input is worth CASH.

sweet. please say hi to him for me. I got back into racing pigeons this year since I retired. I have had four young bird races and got lucky and one all four.lol don't except it to be like this the whole season as theres some great flyers in my club.thank you. ps does your dad still have pigeons.

couple other things to keep in the back of your minds. when we inbreed as stated our dogs get smaller. along with this comes a dog that has lost a lot of mouth in loudness because most small dogs don't have the mouth of the bigger dogs.now don't worry about this till your a few generations down the rd.

Brother/Sister back to Father...

That reminds me of that song, "I am my own Grandpa!" Zack Danbury has a male lined up like that. Ron Ganus has one like that also (it's brother). The father/daughter part of that equation was done by A.I. so there is another factor but the semen was from the sire at age five or six so it should be of good quality. I'm watching and waiting on the results. The dogs out of four litters of the Wick's Camo Jug and Sparklin Susie cross have been inbred almost more than any line of leoaprds in the history of the breed. The exceptions to that would be some of the Hensley dogs and maybe Oller's and Toth's dogs.

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

thanks Michael. its seems many of the lep guys are just starting to touch the inbred stuff. iam surprised I thought there was lep guys playing with this inbreeding stuff for years.dan what has inbreeding done for the line of leps that you mentioned in your above post. in my mind our goal is to make it a short rd for the new guys starting to play with inbreeding. Michael can you name a few dogs that come from your dads inbreeding or linebreeding and which way produced the top lep.from jasons past post and randys I thought these folks were playing with inbreeding with there dogs.heres wishing a few more lep guys jump into this topic.

I haven't touched on this topic yet because you asked for replys from guys who have been inbreeding for awhile, which I have not. Shine is from a full brother-sister cross ( from two different litters, the dam is several years younger than the sire) and he is my favorite hound I have ever owned. I figured if it worked for him it might work moving forward so I have bred him to his half sister, Reaper three times now. So far that seems to have been a home run cross. The oldest litter is about 19 months old and already has one Nite Ch and a few others that are real nice hounds. The second litter is about 9-10 months old and I am already getting some great reports back. One pup in particular is doing a bang up job and is already consistantly running and treeing coon on his own already. The third litter is just a few months old so time will tell... I have also crossed him on his full sister Floyd River Catwoman (from differant litters again) those pups are also only a few months old so again time will tell. And the final inbreeding cross we have made is in cooperation with with Eric Saylors and his fine female Fancy who is a half sister to Shine (Floyd River McBoone x Floyd River Gabby) Basically the opposite of the Shine x Reaper cross. So in summation we have crossed Shine on his half sister (same sire) , full sister, and half sister (same dam). I don't know how much of this is gonna work or flop but I just have not seen very many other lines of leopards out there that would suit me so I figured I would just continue inbreeding until something pops up that knocks my socks off. I have come across several differant individual hounds out there that have really impressed me, but I see traits whether they be in the looks, hunting style, accuracy, or the integrity of the breeder's program that have turned me off to the other lines as a whole.

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

As a side note.... we are starting to breed more and more outside females and some that are Jug bred as well so we will hopefully have more and more opportunities to see how some looser crosses and crosses on differant lines will work. I have a strong feeling that some of the better crosses will come from females who are line bred or inbred on Jug crossed on differant females since most everything I have goes back to the Jug x Susie cross. Of particular interest to me is the Jug x Mcdills Bell cross. I had purchased three females that where heavily McDill bred, figuring one of them ought to turn out and we could try a cross on her. One I had to put down and the other two each have things about them that make me leary of making the cross ( not in hunting ability) but who knows maybe I will change my mind. Unfortunately the pup that had to be put down was my favorite and the one that I had the highest hopes for. Call me a fool for bull headedly trying to produce slick coated houndy pups. I constantly battle in my head about breeding for ability before looks, but so far I am having one hell of a time finding females that combine the hunting ability I crave with the looks that I prefer.

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

THANKS DAVID my goof on the wording. sure glad you posted. your post alone it should open up the eyes of lep breeders and unite the serious breeders of leps to move the breed to the top of the hill.also culling is the gold road at the end of the rainbow. thanks again.

thanks micheal. this is the stuff the newer lep guys need to know from you david etc. it comes down to breeding for results which is taking place in the lep breed. nice great post from all and iam impressed its also time for you guys to control this post and me get back to my birds keep this topic going for all to learn. thanks david.

Wow, great stuff
One side of my dog cammys pedigree goes back to several of MIchaels line bred leopards of the past and the other side goes back to jug and suzie.
Its a small world after all !
Kayapellijed390, its interesting we are line, inbreeding similar dogs in a completely different direction.

direction...

Nick, the fact that both of us can line breed/ inbreed in differant directions using the same line of Leps just goes to illustrate my struggle. These leps can have such a variety even within the same litter that it makes me wonder if it is even possible to unify and bottle up the hunting traits and apperance that I am seeking. Basically I am striving to fairly reliably produce dogs that look and hunt just like Shine, because for my personal preferance he is pretty close to my personal version of a perfect dog. There are a few areas that I would like to strengthen or improve upon him, mainly because I am insatiable. After all if we aren't constantly striving to improve than what is the point? That is why I said the Jug x McDill's Bell cross is of particular interest to me because several of the dogs that have really impressed me where strong in some of the areas that I would like to improve. For example the Johnny Reb x Pretty Girl cross in particular has caught my eye but at the same time there are some dogs from that cross that have traits that I am trying to eliminate. In all fairness there are also dogs out of the line that I am hunting that also have traits that I would just as soon eliminate, it sounds like some of those traits are what you may be trying to highlight and bring out in your breeding program. The variety of this breed is astounding! I truly believe that there is a line or individual dog in this breed that would suit just about any houndsman. They come extremely cur like, to fairly houndy in appearance and the hunting styles run the gamut from one end of the spectrum to other as well. There isn't anything wrong with any of them, they all fit a niche and all of them are useful in differant parts if the country, on differant game and for differant styles of hunting. What I prefer someone else may hate, doesn't make anyones dogs or line better or worse than anyone elses, just differant. I can appreciate all differant kinds of dogs and value and understand their usefullness. At the same time common sense tells me to avoid the lines that are strong in areas that for my preferances are viewed as weaknesses.

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson