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-- Will it make them better? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928522443)

Will it make them better?

In my opinion, Competition hunts are to be a measuring stick for the
hounds that we own. It gives us a way to compare the hounds we own with what others have. It has been almost 3 weeks since Autumn Oaks and rule changes were approved. My question is will the new rule changes actually help to improve what we are breeding for. Or will it even help us in our ability to fairly judge which dog is better on a cast.
I will not insult anyone for their opinion and ask the same from those commenting. Just so we are clear where I'm coming from I hunt both UKC and PKC. I hunt local clubs mostly with occasional trips to bigger hunts. I enjoy it very much or I wouldn't do it.
Will It Make Them Better?
My opinion
1) 3 minute tree. A dog holding a tree for only 3 minutes will not make a better hound. It will only mean they don't have to stay treed in all weather conditions as long. Will this improve the tree hound?
2) Tree count down: The main reason I read for most liking this change is to stop the me too and backing dogs from winning. This rule as written will NOT STOP IT! A dog can run over a mile in less than 2 minutes, so a good backer can easily cover any dog in less than 3 minutes and probably 2 minutes What this rule does do is allow a handler that doesn't like how his dog is treeing to hold off and only take a quarter instead of being force to tree for 75.
3) No leash lock rule: This rule is yet to be written and I am interested to see how it will work. I personally think the current UKC rules on this are very fair and good. Currently if any dog is still trailing, the longest I have to wait is 8 minutes to recut. And I have the option of recutting immediately if nothing else is struck in. The big difference I see, under the new proposal is I will have to recut with other dogs treed close by. Which could be a penalty for treeing first with the new treeing but not declared treed rule.
4) Silent on track: I can't see how this will improve our hounds as most breeds want a standard of a dog open trailing.
Thanks for reading my long winded opinion. I appreciate your opinions on how the coonhound will be improved by these rule changes.

Re: Will it make them better?

quote:

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Originally posted by Lance Laymon
In my opinion, Competition hunts are to be a measuring stick for the
hounds that we own. It gives us a way to compare the hounds we own with what others have. It has been almost 3 weeks since Autumn Oaks and rule changes were approved. My question is will the new rule changes actually help to improve what we are breeding for. Or will it even help us in our ability to fairly judge which dog is better on a cast.
I will not insult anyone for their opinion and ask the same from those commenting. Just so we are clear where I'm coming from I hunt both UKC and PKC. I hunt local clubs mostly with occasional trips to bigger hunts. I enjoy it very much or I wouldn't do it.
Will It Make Them Better?
My opinion
1) 3 minute tree. A dog holding a tree for only 3 minutes will not make a better hound. It will only mean they don't have to stay treed in all weather conditions as long. Will this improve the tree hound?
2) Tree count down: The main reason I read for most liking this change is to stop the me too and backing dogs from winning. This rule as written will NOT STOP IT! A dog can run over a mile in less than 2 minutes, so a good backer can easily cover any dog in less than 3 minutes and probably 2 minutes What this rule does do is allow a handler that doesn't like how his dog is treeing to hold off and only take a quarter instead of being force to tree for 75.
3) No leash lock rule: This rule is yet to be written and I am interested to see how it will work. I personally think the current UKC rules on this are very fair and good. Currently if any dog is still trailing, the longest I have to wait is 8 minutes to recut. And I have the option of recutting immediately if nothing else is struck in. The big difference I see, under the new proposal is I will have to recut with other dogs treed close by. Which could be a penalty for treeing first with the new treeing but not declared treed rule.
4) Silent on track: I can't see how this will improve our hounds as most breeds want a standard of a dog open trailing.
Thanks for reading my long winded opinion. I appreciate your opinions on how the coonhound will be improved by these rule changes.

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I think the new rules are great. But I also hunt a walker. Meaning nothing really. Except I know I can train, not beat it to fit the rules. Type or breed of dog shouldn’t matter for that matter. But am beginning to think that the people that are against all this are the ones hunting a dog that is not capable of doing it’s own thing an has to depend on another to do so. Then again it could be that the ones that are whining are so hung up in the past on how things once were that change scares them to death. Maybe they are kennel blind , believing what they have is not getting a fair shake in all this change.In reality what they do have can’t reach the mark that is gonna be expected with this new rule change.

If a dog won't stay treed 3 minutes he won't stay 5 either.

Lance , I understand what you are saying and you have valid points. However I think the rules are trying to help the cast get as many coons treed in these short hunts and in the end the dog that can earn the most points on the most coons is supposed to win. I’m sure the rules will have some unforeseen loopholes or issues but I don’t feel personally that the dogs will be bred to a lesser standard because of it. JMO

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I think people shied away from breeding silent dogs because they weren't allowed in hunts. Yes, I know, they were being hunted. Now they'll be hunted and bred more and it seems we already had more silent hounds than we had 30 years ago.

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No

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quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
I think people shied away from breeding silent dogs because they weren't allowed in hunts. Yes, I know, they were being hunted. Now they'll be hunted and bred more and it seems we already had more silent hounds than we had 30 years ago.

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With no leash lock the best dog may not be lead around half the hunt, silent or open should only matter to the guy feeding. 3 minute tree does nothing but give more hunt time. So in my opinion yes

I think people either like change or don't, but what I'm asking is will the changes proposed make better dog. It seems to me they are just changes for the sake of change.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sleepy head
[B]With no leash lock the best dog may not be lead around half the hunt, silent or open should only matter to the guy feeding. 3 minute tree does nothing but give more hunt time. So in my opinion yes

Under current UKC rules the longest you can be kept on leash is 8 minutes unless all dogs are treed. Which I always thought was better than PKC.
Silent mouth dogs will also matter to the people breeding to them down the road.
So the 3 minute tree is just to speed the hunt up? Why not make it 2 minutes then or even 30 seconds?
Won't that also affect the treed but not declared treed time also. Have to make it 3 min?

Re: Re: Will it make them better?

quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
So you think that the rules will make people breed silent dogs that cover too much and won't stay treed?

That's not the case in the other Kennel Clubs that have similar rules.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sgraves
I think the new rules are great. But I also hunt a walker. Meaning nothing really. Except I know I can train, not beat it to fit the rules. Type or breed of dog shouldn’t matter for that matter. But am beginning to think that the people that are against all this are the ones hunting a dog that is not capable of doing it’s own thing an has to depend on another to do so. Then again it could be that the ones that are whining are so hung up in the past on how things once were that change scares them to death. Maybe they are kennel blind , believing what they have is not getting a fair shake in all this change.In reality what they do have can’t reach the mark that is gonna be expected with this new rule change.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sonny Phipps
Lance , I understand what you are saying and you have valid points. However I think the rules are trying to help the cast get as many coons treed in these short hunts and in the end the dog that can earn the most points on the most coons is supposed to win. I’m sure the rules will have some unforeseen loopholes or issues but I don’t feel personally that the dogs will be bred to a lesser standard because of it. JMO

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Playing a game

You can still take the same dog to the new game if that’s what you like. If your dog runs to every dog treed and can’t think for itself you might just lose more games than you win. If people really can’t stand what type of dogs win the hunts don’t buy one or breed to it. If you just like to go to a hunt to hangout and hunt with some other dogs you can still do that. Just don’t criticize the guys that are breeding their dogs to win the game because yours can’t keep up.

Some of these changes I agree with and some I don't. I personally don't like the tree countdown, like the 3 minute tree, and see NO reason for BOTH. I will wait to see the final rules, learn them, and enforce them when I am MOH.

Most of these changes are to help the 1 hour hunts. In such a limited time to win you need to prevent the other dogs from getting points. Every one says it's to prevent the "ME TOO dog" from winning. That must be a problem in the mid west but in over 35 years of competition I have not seen it very much in the south east. And before you accuse me of having me too dogs, I don't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lance Laymon
Thank you for your thoughtful post. So I gather you believe we are only changing the rules to make the game different, but that it will not make the dogs better. As I stated before I thought that the hunts were to judge the caliber of hound we were hunting, not just to play a game.
It seems to me they just want to change the rules to have something different to play with no thought of how it will affect the outcome of our hound.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bill(Chew)
Some of these changes I agree with and some I don't. I personally don't like the tree countdown, like the 3 minute tree, and see NO reason for BOTH. I will wait to see the final rules, learn them, and enforce them when I am MOH.

Most of these changes are to help the 1 hour hunts. In such a limited time to win you need to prevent the other dogs from getting points. Every one says it's to prevent the "ME TOO dog" from winning. That must be a problem in the mid west but in over 35 years of competition I have not seen it very much in the south east. And before you accuse me of having me too dogs, I don't.

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Get deep or Get Beat!

I have always said that I don’t know why so many folks have a issue with dogs backing. I have not seen this type to be such a threat in a hunt. Every time I saw this type dog beat me , instead of blaming a rule or the dog that beat me, I just look at the end of my leash and find the problem......

Hard to argue with this logic!!

Hard to argue with this logic!! [/B][/QUOTE]

Honestly if my dog is trying to tree a coon for every minute that it is loose during a hunt and has pretty fair talent about it how does a dog that back him/her beat me? A bad break ? Yea maybe, but that can happen with any rule in place. I guess I’m just in the dark on how this is such a issue. I do agree that not leash locking dogs will help with some clock burning issues but I not sure I understand the reason folks are so worked up over a dog backing. Heck I figure if it’s backing mine, it’s not out treeing a extra coon on me or something, let them back for less points on every coon! 😎

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X2. It's hard to beat you if a dog is me-tooing all night

I never will understand this anger over a dog treeing with another dog.

__________________
Donald Bergeron

Re: Will it make them better?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lance Laymon
In my opinion, Competition hunts are to be a measuring stick for the
hounds that we own. It gives us a way to compare the hounds we own with what others have. It has been almost 3 weeks since Autumn Oaks and rule changes were approved. My question is will the new rule changes actually help to improve what we are breeding for. Or will it even help us in our ability to fairly judge which dog is better on a cast.
I will not insult anyone for their opinion and ask the same from those commenting. Just so we are clear where I'm coming from I hunt both UKC and PKC. I hunt local clubs mostly with occasional trips to bigger hunts. I enjoy it very much or I wouldn't do it.
Will It Make Them Better?
My opinion
1) 3 minute tree. A dog holding a tree for only 3 minutes will not make a better hound. It will only mean they don't have to stay treed in all weather conditions as long. Will this improve the tree hound?
2) Tree count down: The main reason I read for most liking this change is to stop the me too and backing dogs from winning. This rule as written will NOT STOP IT! A dog can run over a mile in less than 2 minutes, so a good backer can easily cover any dog in less than 3 minutes and probably 2 minutes What this rule does do is allow a handler that doesn't like how his dog is treeing to hold off and only take a quarter instead of being force to tree for 75.
3) No leash lock rule: This rule is yet to be written and I am interested to see how it will work. I personally think the current UKC rules on this are very fair and good. Currently if any dog is still trailing, the longest I have to wait is 8 minutes to recut. And I have the option of recutting immediately if nothing else is struck in. The big difference I see, under the new proposal is I will have to recut with other dogs treed close by. Which could be a penalty for treeing first with the new treeing but not declared treed rule.
4) Silent on track: I can't see how this will improve our hounds as most breeds want a standard of a dog open trailing.
Thanks for reading my long winded opinion. I appreciate your opinions on how the coonhound will be improved by these rule changes.

---

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Re: Re: Will it make them better?

quote:

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Originally posted by berger
Lance Laymon I respect your opinion, and in my opinion some of these rules will help in producing better dogs down the road. UKC has seen a younger generation hunting in other major hunts in other registries. So there was going to be rule changes and a lot of rule changes were approved.

1)Now I am not in favor of the 3minute tree rule but not because I think it will devalue the dogs. The 3 minute rule will speed up the hunt which is great for the younger generation. I am not sure if the older generation will be able to keep up except in maybe 1hr hunts. We will see. I hope all these changes will bring some of the younger hunters that hunt other kennel clubs and keep the ones that have been hunting UKC events.

2) Tree count down this is one of the best rules Ever in the history of UKC to be approved. This will Improve the quality of dogs produced, bred and hunted. I will give you and example why. A Real UKC Hunt: 3 dog cast I will call them dog A,B&C Dogs cut all dogs struck 100yds infront A&B went straight ahead to the right C swung to the left opening. A treed B treed 5 was up walked in scored coon. Pulled off C still opening recut A & B strike again working a track C trees B quits her track and goes to C, tree B go and score tree coon seen. I will shorten it up for You A and C each treed 3 coons that night never together and never in the hunt were all dogs treed at one time. B scored on 6 coons, but never once treed a coon but multiple times quit a track to go to a dog treed. 5 out of 6 times that night she got to a dog treed after 2minutes and sometimes 4minutes won the cast by 50points with 600+ and a 1st place in the hunt. She quit multiple tracks through out the hunt to go to a dog treed. That is lack of desire, heart and ability. Now hypothetically put dog B in that final cast at the UKC World hunt she could have scored on all 6 of those coons and never treed a one of them that would have gave her 450+ not even counting any of her strike points and could have won the world hunt by doing exactly that. Do you really think the best dog would have won or that dog deserved to win a hunt like that?? I will say it is impossible for a dog to go a mile and cover a dog in 2minutes or even 3 for that matter. This would mean a dog would have to run 30mph to do that Impossible. to do it in less then 3 it would need to do 20mph through weeds, corn, beans creeks as a lot of hunts are held in this time of year practically Impossible. The count down might not be as important in areas where only 1 or 2 coon are scored in a hunt. But here in Iowa and Midwest where multiple coons are scored a count down is very much so needed.

3) The leash lock will be good if they keep the rule in place now that is there and give the guy the choice if he wants to turn loose or not after scoring his dog tree and all other dogs are treed and there not going to call timeout That is now the only time a dog is leash Locked. If they take the choice away from a handler then this rule is no good.

4) Silent on track: This rule has done nothing to improve hounds over the years. In fact it just might have made them worse. With 1hr hunts do you realize that a dog hunting beside a corn field and bluff with coons setting in oak trees a dog could wind locate and tree 3 coons in and hour hunt and never open on strike by using his nose breeze and brains and get scratched for doing and absolutely fantastic job that a hound is supposed to do. Once people start breeding for nose and brains instead of bark we will have a lot better hounds and a lot less slick trees. Just my Opinion

Now proposal 1 and proposal 7 that passed has nothing to do with improving hounds those are just rules to try and deplete the competition. Which is the kind of rule changes you have seen for many years. Like needing to tree your dog if it is definitely treed. That has absolutely nothing to do with improving hounds. JMHO

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Re: Re: Will it make them better?

quote:

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Originally posted by berger
Lance Laymon I respect your opinion, and in my opinion some of these rules will help in producing better dogs down the road. UKC has seen a younger generation hunting in other major hunts in other registries. So there was going to be rule changes and a lot of rule changes were approved.

1)Now I am not in favor of the 3minute tree rule but not because I think it will devalue the dogs. The 3 minute rule will speed up the hunt which is great for the younger generation. I am not sure if the older generation will be able to keep up except in maybe 1hr hunts. We will see. I hope all these changes will bring some of the younger hunters that hunt other kennel clubs and keep the ones that have been hunting UKC events.

2) Tree count down this is one of the best rules Ever in the history of UKC to be approved. This will Improve the quality of dogs produced, bred and hunted. I will give you and example why. A Real UKC Hunt: 3 dog cast I will call them dog A,B&C Dogs cut all dogs struck 100yds infront A&B went straight ahead to the right C swung to the left opening. A treed B treed 5 was up walked in scored coon. Pulled off C still opening recut A & B strike again working a track C trees B quits her track and goes to C, tree B go and score tree coon seen. I will shorten it up for You A and C each treed 3 coons that night never together and never in the hunt were all dogs treed at one time. B scored on 6 coons, but never once treed a coon but multiple times quit a track to go to a dog treed. 5 out of 6 times that night she got to a dog treed after 2minutes and sometimes 4minutes won the cast by 50points with 600+ and a 1st place in the hunt. She quit multiple tracks through out the hunt to go to a dog treed. That is lack of desire, heart and ability. Now hypothetically put dog B in that final cast at the UKC World hunt she could have scored on all 6 of those coons and never treed a one of them that would have gave her 450+ not even counting any of her strike points and could have won the world hunt by doing exactly that. Do you really think the best dog would have won or that dog deserved to win a hunt like that?? I will say it is impossible for a dog to go a mile and cover a dog in 2minutes or even 3 for that matter. This would mean a dog would have to run 30mph to do that Impossible. to do it in less then 3 it would need to do 20mph through weeds, corn, beans creeks as a lot of hunts are held in this time of year practically Impossible. The count down might not be as important in areas where only 1 or 2 coon are scored in a hunt. But here in Iowa and Midwest where multiple coons are scored a count down is very much so needed.

3) The leash lock will be good if they keep the rule in place now that is there and give the guy the choice if he wants to turn loose or not after scoring his dog tree and all other dogs are treed and there not going to call timeout That is now the only time a dog is leash Locked. If they take the choice away from a handler then this rule is no good.

4) Silent on track: This rule has done nothing to improve hounds over the years. In fact it just might have made them worse. With 1hr hunts do you realize that a dog hunting beside a corn field and bluff with coons setting in oak trees a dog could wind locate and tree 3 coons in and hour hunt and never open on strike by using his nose breeze and brains and get scratched for doing and absolutely fantastic job that a hound is supposed to do. Once people start breeding for nose and brains instead of bark we will have a lot better hounds and a lot less slick trees. Just my Opinion

Now proposal 1 and proposal 7 that passed has nothing to do with improving hounds those are just rules to try and deplete the competition. Which is the kind of rule changes you have seen for many years. Like needing to tree your dog if it is definitely treed. That has absolutely nothing to do with improving hounds. JMHO

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