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-- What is this I hearing Spare Time Spanky may not be Nt ch Etringer Crickets Sire (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=4585)

spanky

I've heard spanky isnt what HIS papers say he is!!

spanky

I called Warren Haslouer today because he was the man who owned Cricket's mother when she was bred. He said he took Oxy to Spanky and put them in the pen togeather. They then went hunting so he didn't see the two hook up but I guess there were some people there and they said to him that they bred. He told me that he didn't know how it could be wrong but he didn't know. I can't understand why a man who owned some of the best blue dogs in the history of registered dogs would do something like that on purpose. Maybe there was an accident or maybe not. The thing is that it happened twelve years ago and how can they prove right or wrong. I would also like to know who the actual father would be. I also think that if they can not prove who the sire is then ukc should not be able to alter my papers, those of the pups out of my dog, and those who have papers out of my dog or any dog that this would effect. It is a crock of crap that people could not follow rules and do things correctly but I bought a registered dog that ukc said the papers were correct on and that is how it should be. If they can tell me who the father was then that is fine and dandy what ever dog it may be but untill then I have a grnite that was in the top 100 in the world who is going to have a blank spot on his papers and no matter how good of a dog he is nobody will breed to him because of that and it is wrong. Talk about value of a dog dropping. All of these dogs will be worthless without a full pedigree and ukc should not be able to penalise me for what others did.

As for the Bo pups, yes they will be affected and I do appoligise to any and everyone who has one. I sold those dogs like the papers say " to the best of my knolege" and I'm sorry that your papers are wrong.

spanky

I am planning on calling ukc tomorrow and tring to get the scoop as to what is going on. I know I'm not the only one who this affects but it hurts my dog and the program I have tried to get going a lot. I am not very happy and think that it should be the reasponsilbility of ukc to call and notify all of the people who have been affected . They say they found this out three mounths ago and the only way I found out is by a man tring to register some pups out of Bo and the papers are being held up and the pups will not be purple ribbon bred. I do hope they will persue this subject and not just stop by leaving blank spots on papers. It is funny that cricket is now 12 years old and this just comes out. What is the chance of making this right with her mother and father surly being dececed?

Ellett, I knew very well that he was there at Mr Deans..........I thought the was talking of the breeder of Spanky........I have been to Mr Deans when Spanky was there, and stood right beside the great blue hound, and I have a picture of him , and Mr Dean...........

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John M. Vaught

There are a lot of you on this thread who do not have a clue as to Spankys origin. I read someone say he was part bird dog and part this and part that. And someone said a couple of posts ago that Spanky was not out of what his papers said he is........all rumors! I personally know and have known for many years the owners of spankys parents. I live right here in Wisconsin where the litter was whelped. Russ Downing owned the sire (Luke) and was a member of my club at that time, Don Sandberg owned the dam (Peg) who was from Dennis McNelious' dogs in Minnesota. The first owner of Spanky was John Cossman who lived in Western Wisconsin and later Iowa. This is why Spanky was called "Coz'" Spare Time Spanky. John sold him to Jerry Winn and Bart Nation and from there I do not know how they used him in breeding. All I know is Don Sandberg and Denny McNelious are very creditable men that can be trusted and Spanky is out of what his papers say he is out of.

Jake Appel

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Spanky

Chris Baker- I am very sorry to hear this has happened to you. I too have Spanky bred dogs here and this would really screw up my breeeding program.I understand what you must be feeling right now. I also agree that UKC should help you get to the bottum of all this and hope they dont handle the rest of the situation as poorly as they have handled up to this point.
Jake Appel- Thank you for trying to set the record straight concerning Spanky. I agree with you 100% when you said the breeders of Spank are honarable. Some of these folks just dont know of what they speak AT ALL. I also find it somewhat humorous that many where quick to jump on ole Dave Dean when he had nothing to do with the cross in question what a laugh some of these folks are.

Are you guys hearing me!!!

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Dave & Nicki Oswald

spanky

Thanks for the simpathy. It is very upsetting and it makes you feal like a lyer to all the people I have told what my dogs are out of and have sold them pups and such thinking he was what the papers said he was. As far as Dave Dean he had absolutly nothing to do with the cross that concerns my dog. Warren Halouer owned the female and Jerry Winn and Bart Nations owned Spanky. Dave fell into the deal after Winn had made the name for old Spanky. I just know that they think they are onto something and that beings this all took place so long aqgo there will be no reasonable end to it so everyone with dogs that are concerned will have blanks on their papers.


If anyone has any info on this or has talked to ukc about this please give me an e-mail and let me know. Thanks

chris

I Just wanted to say that im sorry that all this confusion has been caused and i really wanted to thank you for they info, i will keep in touch with you to find out what is going on with the papers for the bo pups

What a laugh

Dave, Most of the things these folks ( you say are a laugh )are the way they are from here say. They have heard negative comments through jealousy of the man in a black hat for so long that they will never change. They have to suck up to thier mentors, and can not or will not seek any info on thier own so they just repeat what that other guy told them that is in thier circle of repeated jealousy, and have no intetion of changing.....However what has happened in the past cannot be past on the the last owner of Spanky, and I hope UKC can, and will find out what has happened???????? I just wonder if after they do find the problem if they will also reimbursre the folks thier money on papers that have been bought on all dogs in question........WOW what a big amout of money for them to refund...........

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John M. Vaught

We received a few exclusions where Spanky was supposed to be the sire. There were not many considering Spanky produced 84 pups, some when Bart Nation and Jerry Wynn owned Spanky, others from the current owner, Dave Dean.

UKC did not "go after" this information. A few owners DNA profiled their dogs and received an "exception" from the lab indicating the sire could not possibly be Spanky. These exceptions were reported to UKC. This caused us to require DNA on the rest of the pups in those same litters. Some were found to be Spanky's off-spring, some were not. As recorders of information, our only option was to "fix" the pedigrees to show true and accurate information. That being that the ancestry, in at least Spanky's portion of the pedigree is "unknown".

There are several different scenarios that could have happened. The breeder may not have been aware another male got to the female. Some very important breeders in all different breeds have been amazed to find exclusions from their dogs. It could be a neighbor's dog that jumped the fence, a gate door left unopened by kennel help, a female who pressed her little rear up to the fence when the owner wasn't aware she was in heat, etc.

Sometimes with the breeder's help we are able to find the right sire. This was not the case here. Some of these dogs are 10-13 years old, before our DNA program was even announced. I believe Cricket falls into that age group.

Just one exclusion can affect hundreds of dogs records. So, the exclusions can appear to be more than they really are.

There is always the possibility that papers were "placed" on the dog somewhere along the line when sold from owner to owner. Certainly the temptation would be great if one's dog died to put Spanky's bloodlines on another dog.

I agree, requiring DNA might be the ticket. It has always been a step UKC has hoped to achieve. We just don't feel it's the right time now with the economy as it is to require an additional expense to the breeder. New owners have the option of DNA profiling their dogs and we recommend it. I would never buy a dog without knowing that the sire and dam are DNA profiled but that's just me.

Certainly we understand your desire to place blame on someone. However, there is no way UKC can say for certain that a breeder that receives an exception did it on purpose or is even at fault.

DNA gives us the truth. Years ago you had no way to know for sure and now you do. The truth can sometimes be unpleasant. Kind of like finding out there is no Santa Claus.

Thank you for allowing me to explain the situation better.

i have a question on this last part

UKC did not "go after" this information. A few owners DNA profiled their dogs and received an "exception" from the lab indicating the sire could not possibly be Spanky. These exceptions were reported to UKC. This caused us to require DNA on the rest of the pups in those same litters. Some were found to be Spanky's off-spring, some were not.




shouldnt all the dogs in a litter either be from spanky or not, if some are and some arent from spanky and they are from the same litter, this would seem to me to be deliberately switching of papers. how can dogs from the same litter have different sires?

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the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

(shouldnt all the dogs in a litter either be from spanky or not, if some are and some arent from spanky and they are from the same litter, this would seem to me to be deliberately switching of papers. how can dogs from the same litter have different sires?)




Dogs from the same litter can have different sires if the female was double bred. If you bred her to a stud and sometime soon after she got hooked up with another dog then its possible. It doesnt necessarily mean switching of papers but an honest mistake.

interesting,

thanks redhunter

i think this is a can of worms no one wants to open. this is has to be very very widespread in my opinion

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the oldest ride in the park, but still the longest line.

spanky

So what do I need to do? DNA my dog to find out who his grandpa is or what? I just want to know so that he is what I say he is and his pups are as well. A stud dog with no pedigree is worthless and that's what I have now! Should all pedigrees that are 12 years old need to be checked!!!!!!! My dogs parents are dna-vip and dna-p so what do I do with the dog I have invested all my time and hard earned money in. Thats a nice pile in 5 years of hunts and such things!!!!!!!!!!! Chris Baker

Chris, your only hope is if there was a dna profile done on the sire of the litter your dog is out of. If there is a record of the sire it will be simple to tell who it is. If there is no dna on record to match the sire, it's anybody's guess. I am sorry you got caught up in a bad deal that you had no control over. I hope there is a dna record that will match you dog's sire. The papers could be changed to reflect the proper sire and all pups registered. Hope it works out that way for you.

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Mulberry Blue

Spanky

Mackie Manns can tell you all about the Spanky line as he is now the most successful breeder of this line around, and the color of all his blues are blueticked without the red heads, and that small head look that looks worse than a cur dog........Those red head blueticks just don't have the look that suits a true blueticker.........

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John M. Vaught

Dirtdevel

I surely would like to hear as to where you got that info that Spanky was half bird dog/ 1/4...... bluetick........ 1/4 walker .......Where did you hear this or do you actually know this........I think we all need to hear from you your source, or sources of info, or are you afraid to say anymore before checking with your friend, friends or whatever your source is. We are waiting to hear from you..........

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John M. Vaught

I heard a story about spanky.

He treed a coon in the median between four lanes of oncoming traffic. It was told as truth.
sam

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I don't believe that this thread was meant to challenge the integrity of Spanky. He was a very good coondog and a reproducer. The question is what bred crickets mom. This is unknown. as for Dave Dean and spanky, Dave was not the breeder that got Spanky. He was out of Russ' Treeing Blue Luke. Dave just Campaigned the dog in the later years of his life.

A.L Is right, what these people are really after is the sire to crickets litter of pups, iam definetly one of those people because i just bought a pup out of chris bakers "bo" so i would really appreciate it if we could focus more on the subject instead of questioning spank's capabilities

Dave Dean has nothing to do with this thread you are correct

All we want to know is who the sire might be and how did UKC come up with this knowledge. We already know the history of Spanky and also a lot of you don't know is LeRoy Penny had Spanky at is house for a while but he as nothing to do with it either. Who has pups out of Cricket. I know Bingo also was bred to Cricket as well.

John Vaught

You are truely a hoot. That post about red headed dogs was another direct bash just like you bashed the world champ. We both know who it was directed at and if that is how you feel fine.You sir are a complete joke to the breed you proclaim to love.
You cause nothing but hate and discontent on this board and not one single person takes you serious. You continually make an ass of yourself and this fine breed of hounds with your dribble. Everytime you open the hole in your face about Dave Dean you embarrass a legend. I am sure you have turned more people away from Dave than you ever could introduce to this fine strain of bluetick hound NUFF SAID

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Dave & Nicki Oswald

Sorry folks

I aplogize to the folks that are reading this thread but Vaught needed to be told.

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Dave & Nicki Oswald

AMEN COUNTRYMILE!!!!!!!

I KINDA THINK REDHEADS ARE SEXY LMAO...... MAYBE ONE OF THESE DAYS ILL TRY ME ONE OF YOUR REBEL PUPS.......HAVE TO GIVE YA A JINGLE BEFORE BLUETICK DAYS THIS COMIN MAY AND GO FOR A NIGHT OF COON BUSTIN.....TAKE CARE AND HAPPY HUNTIN

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yes!

i completly agree with country mile 100%, there have been soo many redheaded dogs, and they are just as good as another. I myself actually own a pup out of "bo" and "roxanne" who is "red headed" she is five months old and has no prblem treeing a coon, so what is wrong with her red head? i think vaught just likes to talk to hear himself