UKC Forums - Monkey Face Bluetick History

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-- Monkey Face Bluetick History (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=89119)

Posted by Mo. MAD-DOG on 03-29-2006 02:35 AM:

I have a CH Gr NT CH male that is Monkey faced, His mother was a full litermate to Bullet.....Would you say that he is Bullet Bred?

Posted by bluetickin on 03-29-2006 02:54 AM:

% monkey faced

I bred my Frostys Fancy female to Bullet she had 10 pups none were monkey faced and from what Ive heard none of the pups RC or Nell(two litters of Bo Bo and Pen) havent thrown a monkeyfaced pup yet.Have had 4 litters off grand pups off the cross and none produced yet.Haveing a litter right now out of Patsy and Bo Bo.

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Posted by Hardup Kennels on 03-29-2006 02:46 PM:

Sky wasnt monkey faced when I bought her, she had a full mask. It slowly faded away, do they all do that or are some born monkey faced?

Posted by no show on 03-29-2006 03:09 PM:

yep

quote:
Originally posted by Hardup Kennels
Sky wasnt monkey faced when I bought her, she had a full mask. It slowly faded away, do they all do that or are some born monkey faced?

usaully will fade

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Posted by BULLET II on 03-29-2006 06:54 PM:

bluetickin

I havn't seen as many out of Bullet and Fancy as you have, and I would think that Fancy dominated the looks, but not totally. I thought Nell was pretty monkey faced myself.

GRCH NITECH 'PR' TWIN SPRINGS BULLET'S BLUE NELL

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Posted by John Vaught on 03-29-2006 07:58 PM:

BTT

MORE INFO NEEDED

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Posted by no show on 03-29-2006 08:41 PM:

Mr. Vaught

What exactlly are you wanting to know, not that I could help you but if your wanting to know which hound was the very first monkey faced hound I dont think there's a legitemate answer.

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Posted by Blue Style on 03-30-2006 03:27 AM:

Vaught

like tom said, not sure what info you are lookin for, but I thought DRP's post was pretty informative...I am assuming he got it from the same place I did, blue book....there are several articles about it, and they all pretty much say the same thing, it was first noticed, at least by the writer/s, around the time period these dogs were kickin ......
"If you will go back and look at the foundational hounds the early breeders used, including Elbert Vaughn, you will find that many of those dogs were monkey faced. As a matter of fact, some of the old hounds looked like red ticks. Vaughn's Bawler, Vaughn's Lula, Hills Blue Rock, Ellyson's Tige, Braggs Bill the Barber, (to name just a few) were all monkey faced. It is a throw back of some of the foundational breeding stock. If you go back far enough, you would find monkey face blues in every strain. It may not be a favorite color, but it shows just how dominant the old genes really are."

I doubt you will find anyone on here that was around when these dogs were bein hunted....good luck.....
p.s. I doubt you can show me a hound that doesnt trace back to one of the foundation vaughn bred dogs that was monkey faced....its in every bloodline....

Posted by CountryMile on 03-30-2006 03:47 AM:

Re: WHAT EVER IS IN BULLET

quote:
Originally posted by John Vaught
Is the most dominating of the monkey face dogs and they are good looking hounds out of bullet that weren't monkey face. I haven't seen it in the hammer dogs as much as the S.R. line/Bullet dogs . I am not for sure were it comes from but do not believe it comes from Spanky however I would agree the red heads come from Spanky and on back to Northern Blue Sadie whom did not have a lot of Bluetick look to her. I have to think the monkey face on Bullet came from the S.R. line a total different look than any Hammer red headed dogs.

John lets look at your post above and take it piece by piece. If Bullet is your common denominator would it be safe to say maybe Bullet got this trait thru Chief and Fly? Keep in mind Chiefs paternal pedigree. Also we know where Fly came from. Ok now what two dogs is Spanky bred on? I believe the answer is early Hammer blooded hounds who we all know are Vaughn blooded then turned into themselves more intensley than any other strain of any breed. With that known wouldnt it be safe to say the Hammer dogs carry this trait from the Vaughn dogs who were known for this coloration? Prolly like anything else with genetics,its all an educated guess lol. But my guess is Hammer dogs carry alot of influence even many generations downstream because of their genetic makeup. They received that makeup from Mr Vaughns hounds, but like I said "just a guess". Good luck with finding all the pieces to your puzzle. Dave

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Posted by bluetickin on 03-30-2006 04:10 AM:

John

Hes just tryin to stir up a barrell of monkeys.lol

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Posted by John Vaught on 03-30-2006 01:26 PM:

Re: Re: WHAT EVER IS IN BULLET

quote:
Originally posted by CountryMile
John lets look at your post above and take it piece by piece. If Bullet is your common denominator would it be safe to say maybe Bullet got this trait thru Chief and Fly? Keep in mind Chiefs paternal pedigree. Also we know where Fly came from. Ok now what two dogs is Spanky bred on? I believe the answer is early Hammer blooded hounds who we all know are Vaughn blooded then turned into themselves more intensley than any other strain of any breed. With that known wouldnt it be safe to say the Hammer dogs carry this trait from the Vaughn dogs who were known for this coloration? Prolly like anything else with genetics,its all an educated guess lol. But my guess is Hammer dogs carry alot of influence even many generations downstream because of their genetic makeup. They received that makeup from Mr Vaughns hounds, but like I said "just a guess". Good luck with finding all the pieces to your puzzle. Dave

Good point Dave......However you see none of the monkey face hounds coming from the Hammer kennel and there has never been a lot of them. I sure like the Hammer blood but I believe on this one I will have to agree the monkey face does not come from HAMMER >>>>>>Hammer III. As you well know there is a difference in red head and a monkey face............

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Posted by no show on 03-30-2006 03:29 PM:

robs crazy

Crazys fly didnt get her monkey face from her sire, she got it from her mother and passed it on to her greatest son Bullet.............want to find out where it come from, see robs crazy's pedigree !!

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Posted by hat creek mac on 03-30-2006 08:09 PM:

You are right!

trace Crazy back and you will see where the monkey face comes from-----Crazy came from Louisiana I do believe

Posted by no show on 03-30-2006 09:11 PM:

crazy's 4-gen........

...............................................s.r.diamond jim
.................................bramletts bayou blue jim
...............................................s.r. blue kit
...........................garons blue moose
...............................................campbells blue bawler
..................................bayou blue suzie
................................................davis blue sandy
................MIGHTY BLUE MAGNUM
.................................................sebastions little blue
...................................ennis blue snow
..................................................sebastions blue babe
............................willies blue souix
...................................................bramletts bayou blue jim
.....................................lisk blue dot
....................................................lisk blue sadie
......ROBS CRAZY
....................................................s.r. blue diamond jim
.....................................carruths blue mac
.....................................................s.r. blue kit
.............................deville's blue rooster
.....................................................johnstons blue rowdy
......................................taylors blue trudy
.....................................................howells peggy
................MIGHTY BLUE DOLLY
.....................................................merrits blue snake
.......................................johnstons blue rowdy
......................................................blue sue
...............................erwins blue glenda
.......................................................tangipahda river trupet
........................................howells peggy
.......................................................ellzey's blue daisy

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Posted by RRbluehound on 03-30-2006 11:26 PM:

Re: Re: Re: WHAT EVER IS IN BULLET

quote:
Originally posted by John Vaught
Good point Dave......However you see none of the monkey face hounds coming from the Hammer kennel and there has never been a lot of them. I sure like the Hammer blood but I believe on this one I will have to agree the monkey face does not come from HAMMER >>>>>>Hammer III. As you well know there is a difference in red head and a monkey face............

I think what dave was trying to say is that the dogs with monkey faces came from hounds that were line breed on the old hounds, like spanky was on hammer 2 and 3, robs crazy on jim, look at bullet II,chief - old blood,spanky- old blood, spud- old blood= monkey face, also look at the old rebel, he threw monkey faces, rebel II was an extreme monkey face and he threw monkey faces also, again line breed old blood

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Posted by brad toney on 03-30-2006 11:54 PM:

monkey face

I dont know where it started but I know where I first saw it.My good friend Mr. Frank Erwin was the breeder of Robs Crazy.She was out of his Mighty Blue Magnum x Mighty Blue Dolly.I personally remember all of this litter being monkey faced.I hunted with Magnum,Dolly and several of Crazys mates many times.This was a very good pair of hounds and an extremely good litter of pups from them.This monkey faced characteristic seems to me to have without a doubt stemmed from this cross,a cross that did end up leading blueticks to Bullet.I am not a bluetick breeder and what I have seen dont make it the begining,just where I saw it first.Happy Hunting

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Posted by CountryMile on 03-31-2006 12:00 AM:

Yup you guys are right!

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Posted by Blue Style on 03-31-2006 04:12 AM:

Just a thought

"If you will go back and look at the foundational hounds the early breeders used, including Elbert Vaughn, you will find that many of those dogs were monkey faced. Vaughn's Bawler, Vaughn's Lula, Hills Blue Rock, Ellyson's Tige, Braggs Bill the Barber, (to name just a few) were all monkey faced. It is a throw back of some of the foundational breeding stock. If you go back far enough, you would find monkey face blues in every strain."

So there it is.....it is coming from just about every dog in the pedigree....For some reason the cross Bullet was out of produced it more than most, as did Bullet himself, and some of his sons and grandsons are as well....maybe it was the hammer on top crossed on the crazy gyp on the bottom....but one thing I would like to see....Lets see some monkey faced solid hammer dogs....

Posted by Craig Edwards on 03-31-2006 04:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by texhog
Monkey Faced dogs were all but "extinct" untill Bullet came along. I know there are others, but none being bred like Bullet was. Anyway Vaughn did have several Monkey faced hounds in the past but was trying to breed it out, he said it was the redtick trying to get out.

I wouldn't go quite that far to say they were all but extinct. There has been an increase in monkey face dogs for sure, but they have always been around. Many of the old Galloway hounds were monkey face, and they were used in a big way as a foundation for the bluetick breed. I have copies of the old Blue Books, Full Crys, Bloodlines, and American Cooners, and it is really interesting to see all of the monkey face blues that were offered for stud, or used for breeding. Many of todays blues go back to Welsh's Blue Warrior.......a beautiful hound....sold for an unheard of price in his day of $ 1,000.00......and was monkey-faced. Many of the J.V. hounds bred by Frank Findley, and hounds used by Jake Sides were all monkey face. They have always been around. One of the biggest differences is that years ago people did not think as much about it as they do now. It just wasn't a big deal to most bluetick houndsmen, and breeders.

I have a dog in my kennel right now that is monkey face, and he is a grandson to Dryfork Blue Spud......but not through Bullet.

I do not view it as a fault, but that would be a prefrence depending on the individual.

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Posted by Voyd Cannon on 03-31-2006 05:17 AM:

When I look at Rob's Crazy's pedigree I don't see a bunch of monkey faced dogs. Diamond Jim Dogs wasn't know for this trait.

Posted by BULLET II on 03-31-2006 05:44 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
When I look at Rob's Crazy's pedigree I don't see a bunch of monkey faced dogs. Diamond Jim Dogs wasn't know for this trait.

GRNITECH 'PR' ROB'S CRAZY

Voyd you have been around longer than I have, and know more about the background of these dogs. My question is, if Crazy didn't have monkey face behind her then how did all her littermates and her come out this way?

NOW THIS IS WHAT SOLD ME ON CRAZY BEING THE DOMINATE ONE ON THE MONKEY FACE THROUGH FLY AND BULLET. I'm not saying she is the only thing behind these dogs that were monkey faced. Spud was very monkey faced. This female below is out of GrCh GrNiteCh 'PR' Sexton's Blue Jimmy x GrNiteCh 'PR' Rob's Crazy. Just speaking for myself, I have NEVER seen a monkey faced dog out Jimmy until this cross. Someone else might have, but I havn't. My point is Jimmy didn't do this, Crazy did and was very dominate about it.

NITECH 'PR' SMOKEY RIVER CRAZY'S BLUE WINDY

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Posted by blueticks99 on 03-31-2006 05:53 AM:

i had

a young gyp i sold to my buddy that was outta my jed dog grand pup of northern blue rebel,rebel was outta spanky and a female that was also a grand pup of rebel on the bottom and a great great grand pup of russ treein blue luke on top that is monkey faced with the black around her eyes like the crazy gyp and there was no bullet or smokey river just straight hammer and i will try to go over there and post a pic for ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted by John Vaught on 03-31-2006 12:10 PM:

NORTEHERN BLUE REBEL, RAMBLER

Rebel was not a so called monkey face as these dogs posted here or was he like Bullet to be honest he looked I think more like Northern Blue Sadie and was an odd looking character and Rambler I believe a littermate to Rebel was a total different looking dog. I have never seen a Hammer dog monkey face as Bullet and these dogs posted here, I have to say this tee off who it may there has never ben a better looking dog than Bullet in any line or will there ever be, I have never owned a dog out of him but sure wished I did have some of that blood here. Can anyone post a picture of Northern Blue Rebel and Rambler. I have one here of Rambler I will find but none of Rebel.......... I have seen on different occasions liver colored Hammer dogs in Kentucky and in Mich........

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Posted by John Vaught on 03-31-2006 12:15 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: WHAT EVER IS IN BULLET

quote:
Originally posted by RRbluehound
I think what dave was trying to say is that the dogs with monkey faces came from hounds that were line breed on the old hounds, like spanky was on hammer 2 and 3, robs crazy on jim, look at bullet II,chief - old blood,spanky- old blood, spud- old blood= monkey face, also look at the old rebel, he threw monkey faces, rebel II was an extreme monkey face and he threw monkey faces also, again line breed old blood

Rebel II. is not monkey face he has a more of a red head like Northern Blue Sadie a lot of difference in Rebel II"s. face and these hounds like bullet and some of the others posted on here

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Posted by no show on 03-31-2006 02:33 PM:

Voyd

quote:
Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
When I look at Rob's Crazy's pedigree I don't see a bunch of monkey faced dogs. Diamond Jim Dogs wasn't know for this trait.

bramletts bayou blue jim and ennis snow threw monkey faced hounds, Im sure mac (bayou blue's) littermate did also. You been doing allright Voyd, havent heard from you in awhile. edited: also sebastions blue's sire lone cry tracer was a monkey faced hound.

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