UKC Forums - Lets talk some breeding

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-- Lets talk some breeding (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928298861)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-04-2013 08:56 PM:

Re: ARE YOU SURE RICHARD

quote:
Originally posted by Larry D Walker
It looks to me that Mike knows quite a bit about the science of breeding and maintaining superior animals.

Larry, it looks that way to me also.

Posted by RON WOLTER on 02-04-2013 09:25 PM:

Didn"t Tom Solberg & maby someone else
make a cross with - Rat / Raven top side & bot. side ??? & were the pups cookie cutter type"s like the grandparents=???

---Redcoat---

__________________
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Redcoat

Posted by mmarshall on 02-04-2013 09:54 PM:

Ron put the ped of the pups off Kate II and then shakers also both good examples of Kelly's method and are out crosses

Mike always in joy your input and have been a big help to me you and the Rust kd guys have a few crosses that match Kelly's method also
Im Shore there is a lot more
Keep it going

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favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
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Posted by Sawblade on 02-05-2013 01:38 AM:

something to think on

I have no idea if any of this is right but when you look back in different pedigrees of litters that produced more than one good dog you will see the pattern start to show.
with that in mind it makes me believe that the traits we want are in the genes and it's the same gene expression each time it shows up in a dog regardless of line.
So... I am guessing that even when we make an outcross with dogs that are bred using this method "both sides S-cross" the results will continue to be very good because it's the higher % of expression we want. In other words Richard ,I believe we could take one of the S-cross pups you have {as long as it shows the expressed traits we want} and cross it on an S-cross pup I got that expresses the same traits and we will have a high % litter even though it's an outcross. See the traits are tied to the genes and dogs that have an abundance of the correct traits will more easily repeat those traits when crossed with a similar type of dog. keep in mind most all of these hounds go back to the same 3or 4 great dogs of our breed so those same genes are in there no matter the line.

Did I just prove how dumb I am or does anyone follow that crap.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-05-2013 04:04 AM:

Re: something to think on

makes sense to me, and I am pretty slow!!!!!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I have no idea if any of this is right but when you look back in different pedigrees of litters that produced more than one good dog you will see the pattern start to show.
with that in mind it makes me believe that the traits we want are in the genes and it's the same gene expression each time it shows up in a dog regardless of line.
So... I am guessing that even when we make an outcross with dogs that are bred using this method "both sides S-cross" the results will continue to be very good because it's the higher % of expression we want. In other words Richard ,I believe we could take one of the S-cross pups you have {as long as it shows the expressed traits we want} and cross it on an S-cross pup I got that expresses the same traits and we will have a high % litter even though it's an outcross. See the traits are tied to the genes and dogs that have an abundance of the correct traits will more easily repeat those traits when crossed with a similar type of dog. keep in mind most all of these hounds go back to the same 3or 4 great dogs of our breed so those same genes are in there no matter the line.

Did I just prove how dumb I am or does anyone follow that crap.

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-05-2013 04:08 AM:

Re: Re: something to think on

quote:
Originally posted by Larry D Walker
makes sense to me, and I am pretty slow!!!!!!!!

And this is the exact reason that I like number 9 that someone mentioned early on CROSSBRED

But the association has put the hammer on that, its pretty clear any known CROSSBRED dog can not be single registered regardless of if it meets breed standards or not, Myself I think this is a huge mistake.

__________________
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Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Bobby Stevens on 02-05-2013 04:10 AM:

Kelly i like SOUP

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Posted by Sawblade on 02-05-2013 01:23 PM:

Larry

You got it man. If the trait "gene" for treeing is the same set of genes being expressed reguardless of line or maybe even breed than taking dogs that have been S-crossed enough to express those traits then breeding those offspring together you should get good stuff.

MRG. I might not have said it right but I also believe you have to use both ways of breeding .Supercrossing is the best way to bring those traits inline the quickest IMO. it uses linebreeding and a big dose of selection "ability/ability and top reproducer/ top reproducer. The last thing I really like about it is anyone can start their own line just build on the best reproducers you have and apy attention to what others are working with in the breed.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-05-2013 02:25 PM:

papers

Papers show us what happened ,they are a way to track success ,selection is either based on a visual record or a paper record, either one is some type of record of success. What I mean is you can pick a dog based on hounds you like the traits of which would be your own mental set of papers or you can use any other set of "papers" you may want to use. Either way people will use a record of some kind . other wise we would all be hunting Walkdoodles and Labrabones .

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-05-2013 02:46 PM:

Re: papers

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
Papers show us what happened ,they are a way to track success ,selection is either based on a visual record or a paper record, either one is some type of record of success. What I mean is you can pick a dog based on hounds you like the traits of which would be your own mental set of papers or you can use any other set of "papers" you may want to use. Either way people will use a record of some kind . other wise we would all be hunting Walkdoodles and Labrabones .

I absoulutely agree, So If the association would allow a crossbred dog that totally meets breed standards a person could still paper pedigree that dog using ukc records, If a dog is a pure bred hound that has a pedigree thru ukc on both the dam and the sire side and meets breed standards then a person should be able to show all ancestry top and bottom and register that dog and show the ancestry,

UKC says its ok but the redbone association says NO WAY!!!!!!

Am I getting off subject, I just dont agree with the association on this and I dont know if I am alone on it or if others agree.

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-05-2013 02:59 PM:

Re: Re: something to think on

quote:
Originally posted by mrg
linebreeding phenotype [ traits ], i do think your statement has more purpose than most realize. if you breed genotype alone, it will guarantee failure. THE PHENOTYPE MUST MATCH UP. no amount of linebreeding can overcome the failure of choosing the proper traits that one wishes to aquire.

Kelly, thanks to you I can understand something that mrg, Mark, is saying.

And I agree whole heartedly....

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-05-2013 05:04 PM:

So Kelly/Dean, what does Bubba's pedigree look like? He was definately in a supercross litter and his sire and Dam are from supercross litters. But how linebred is he? Is he ready for an outcross or should he be linebred again? I know what his traits/phenotypes are but are they "fixed"?

Posted by Sawblade on 02-05-2013 05:17 PM:

one more time

I'm sure if you went back to the well once more it would work out great. Bubba on a heavy Yellow River female or one of those good sisters he had to a Doc/Fiddle male.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-05-2013 05:21 PM:

I am pretty sure that one of those good sisters will be at Southern Days. You should talk with her owner. What about Bubba X Flow/Pearl? Wouldn't that be a great example of what we have been talking about? A linebred female outcrossed to a sire and it producing a supercross. And then linebreeding one of those offspring to a linebred sire to make the offspring's traits "fixed"?

Posted by riproarinkennel on 02-05-2013 05:29 PM:

ARE THERE ANY DOC X FIDDLE MALES STILL AVAILABLE ???

IF SO, COULD YOU TELL ME WHO AND WHERE THEY ARE ???

THANKS.

SEE YOU AT THE NEXT TREE.
- DR. GUMMY

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Posted by Sawblade on 02-05-2013 05:39 PM:

not many left

We have one up here , he is not titled and won't be. His name is Quick and he is a solid coonhound . we have killed many coon with him. he has been bred once . There were three pups they are 13 months old and all are doing very good. The female he was bred to was........HMMMM...... a full sister to Bubba .

I will probably breed mine when she is ready to a Rocky/Maggie male.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-05-2013 10:55 PM:

selection

RedScorpion
I'm a little confused ,if we don't use history or observation than what criteria are you saying we should use in the first place to pick the right cross. Just trying to understand.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-06-2013 01:22 AM:

forgot

RedScorpion, maybe I'm just luckier than some. That would be my guess. I follow what your saying now, not sure I agree 100% but I would say that by linebreeding we increase the chance of those traits becoming expressed weather they are genes or modifiers that line up doesn't really matter as long as they are expressed. Your right about it being harder because of all the different traits we want but there are a few that seem to be tied together. Intensity and instinct will bring out a lot of the other traits we like. These two key traits carry on in families, they are genetic for sure. I have to believe that developing a dog line that produces a higher % of winners than the generation before will eventually lead to even higher and higher numbers. That is also something we can see by looking at records and papers. I'm no expert ,I grew up on a dairy farm where my mother kept excellent records of all the cows and offspring that were ever born on the farm. When they sold out we realized every cow went back to only 3 brood cows . many others had come and gone but those cow families stayed. We never linebred the cows but I learned that some traits seemed to be fixed in some families of cows. I think S-cross is nothing more than a way to identify those families and build on them.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-06-2013 04:49 AM:

Selection of mating pairs by traits is definately the way to go. I think that we all agree on this. But what I think some are saying is that you can "stack the deck" by making this selection within a family of hounds. But you have to have the supercrosses in order to have enough dogs with these good traits in the same family. And different people have different ideas as to what traits are the most important. Maybe everyone should make a list of what traits they are looking for and then rank them as to importance. This might help to evaluate a breeding pair.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-06-2013 11:13 PM:

agree with you

RS, I agree with you , we did not talk about culling but it has to be a very important part of the breeder program.
I would guess that your method of picking dogs that have as many similar traist that you like is very sound and if we looked back far enough into any of the S-cross dogs of today we would find that that is how most all of them began. It is step one in breeding any method. I want to be clear ,breed for the traits and line them up is always what we want to do. If a person wants to ad in extra criteria like line breeding and titled dogs and top reproducers than none of that should take away from the fact we have picked them because of the traits we like first and the other criteria is used to limit the choices not to override the fact that the trait must line up.

Posted by l p w on 02-07-2013 03:17 AM:

breeding

Shoe leather and sleepless nites.

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Posted by roughcreek on 02-07-2013 10:10 PM:

what is the fastball methed breeding? i'v never heard this before.

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Posted by redpower on 02-07-2013 10:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
what is the fastball methed breeding? i'v never heard this before.

It is a baseball anology.... First you have to have a top batter who has shown that they can do it, then you have to have a top capable major league pitcher who can throw a fastball right down the middle and then the batter has to hit a home run right out of the park. Clear as mud, right?

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Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-07-2013 11:18 PM:

THATS RIGHT

quote:
Originally posted by redpower
It is a baseball anology.... First you have to have a top batter who has shown that they can do it, then you have to have a top capable major league pitcher who can throw a fastball right down the middle and then the batter has to hit a home run right out of the park. Clear as mud, right?

YOU ALRIGHT DALE, I DONT CARE WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT YA!!!!!!!!

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Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by mmarshall on 02-08-2013 01:19 PM:

......first base
....male batter
......second base
Home run or grand slam super cross
.......fast ball
.....female pitcher
.......third base

First second third line bred hounds fastball out cross and can be in any of the base runners spots
Hope that helps Jim

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