UKC Forums - Repeat Crosses....how often do they work?

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Posted by Paul Frederick on 03-01-2013 02:10 AM:

What about the cross of Lafoons Super Sting and Lafoons Sugar Cookie? I know first time they produced Setum Up Ace. The next one produced Halls Southern Gauge. Both dogs were great reproducers but Gauge wasn't bred near as much as Ace.

To make your point though that's the only repeat cross I can think of that's like that. Most of then are advertised big when they are made but then fizzle out. I think it's the same as human siblings. I have two brothers and we are all different. We are all from the same parents but our genes came together in different ways. It's the same with pups I'd say. We see a lot about the first litter being so great but the genes come together different in the second litter and it doesn't pan out.

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Posted by Tim Figg on 03-01-2013 02:20 AM:

nobody is pointing fingers or is any one being called dumb. i just thought the question was dumb. it has to be the same no way around it. i dont know why you have to take things so offensivly. if you dont want opinions dont ask questions and thats a fact.

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-01-2013 02:21 AM:

Age

I have bred several litters that have produced titled dogs . Some were repeat litters and none of the 2nd cross or even 3rd cross litters turned out as many titled dogs as the 1st cross did. I have noticed a couple things.
Most females have the healthiest pups when they are young. Pup development makes a difference it the total outcome of a dog. But here is some off the wall thinking so call me dumb if you want.
Anytime a foreign substance enters a body of an animal the effected animal will automatically start to build up some kind of resistance to it. This is how we build immunity. The semen of a male dog is a foreign material. It also contains differences in it from any other male dog. Could it be that even though this is natures way that each time the same male breeds the same female that that female has developed some slight resistance to the male and somehow she blocks or hinders some of his makeup from connecting with hers.. theory only ,please don't call me names. If this would be even slightly possible than each litter to the same male would get slightly worse but a new male would not have any resistance built up. WOW is that out there or what.

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Posted by Tim Figg on 03-01-2013 02:31 AM:

do you think the dna would change in the second or third cross?

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 02:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Figg
nobody is pointing fingers or is any one being called dumb. i just thought the question was dumb. it has to be the same no way around it. i dont know why you have to take things so offensivly. if you dont want opinions dont ask questions and thats a fact.

There are no dumb questions....only dumb answers....thats what I was told in school.

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Posted by Paul Frederick on 03-01-2013 02:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Figg
do you think the dna would change in the second or third cross?

I don't know that much about genetics but just looking at human siblings tells us that genes come together in different ways. Take my wife and her brother. She is 5 5 and he is 6 2. She would be considered, in this context, the second cross. It's pretty easy by looking at people's siblings to see that genes do funny things.

I think Shane asked a valid question no one has answered. If repeat crosses work so well-name them. What cross has thrown a ton of winning dogs in litter 1 and then repeated it in subsequent litters? The fact that we can't think of any is kind of telling.

If repeat crosses work so well where is Mojo's little brother? I would try that cross again but you don't hear anything about any of them. Does that tell you something when they prominent Walker breeders aren't doing it?

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-01-2013 02:45 AM:

There is no way for the dna of either to change but each egg and sperm carry slightly different codes. I'm wondering if the female slowly builds blocks of the sperm carrying similar codes. If you study fertilization there are thousands of sperm trying to inseminate one egg. and only one finally does. what is different about that one from the others . and if the egg can identify what was different than is there a chance for slight immunity build up. So next time the other eggs won't let that same "kind" of sperm do the insemination. Keep in mind they all carry many different options in their dna code. Each sperm is slightly different from the next.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 02:46 AM:

I am glad this is being discussed.....but I wish people would give fact based examples and not what they think. This is one of those things that I already said was counter intuitive. I think it has been going on as long as men have been breeding coonhounds so there should be plenty of evidence if it has worked. I have found at least a hundred cases across all breeds over the years where it did not work....just asking for a few examples of when it did. It's not like I just started wondering about this.....I have formed my own opinion based on the homework I have done and it pretty much mirrors alot of the most successful breeders opinions. Its hard to get a clear answer from some breeders though...because if "proven crosses" are proven to be a myth....well it might cost them some money. So lets put our personal opinions aside for once and get down to the bare facts....if you have examples that can be checked...lets hear them.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 02:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Frederick
What about the cross of Lafoons Super Sting and Lafoons Sugar Cookie? I know first time they produced Setum Up Ace. The next one produced Halls Southern Gauge. Both dogs were great reproducers but Gauge wasn't bred near as much as Ace.

To make your point though that's the only repeat cross I can think of that's like that. Most of then are advertised big when they are made but then fizzle out. I think it's the same as human siblings. I have two brothers and we are all different. We are all from the same parents but our genes came together in different ways. It's the same with pups I'd say. We see a lot about the first litter being so great but the genes come together different in the second litter and it doesn't pan out.

Its kind of funny you mention Set Em Up Ace.....I actually done some of his training and handling when he was a young dog. He was a nice hound and made quite an impact in the b&t breed.
I have found a few repeat crosses that have produced good dogs...but not in the same numbers as first time crosses and only from females that reproduced great on whatever males they were bred to. The Lil Pepper and Kate cross is one example. The repeat cross produced two titled dogs....but the first cross produced alot more. And Kate is one of those dominant females that reproduced with every male she was bred to.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 03:01 AM:

Re: Age

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I have bred several litters that have produced titled dogs . Some were repeat litters and none of the 2nd cross or even 3rd cross litters turned out as many titled dogs as the 1st cross did. I have noticed a couple things.
Most females have the healthiest pups when they are young. Pup development makes a difference it the total outcome of a dog. But here is some off the wall thinking so call me dumb if you want.
Anytime a foreign substance enters a body of an animal the effected animal will automatically start to build up some kind of resistance to it. This is how we build immunity. The semen of a male dog is a foreign material. It also contains differences in it from any other male dog. Could it be that even though this is natures way that each time the same male breeds the same female that that female has developed some slight resistance to the male and somehow she blocks or hinders some of his makeup from connecting with hers.. theory only ,please don't call me names. If this would be even slightly possible than each litter to the same male would get slightly worse but a new male would not have any resistance built up. WOW is that out there or what.

I think you might be on to something with your resistance theory...more so than the age of the female theory and here is why. Kate produced a litter out of little pepper which produced 2 gr.nt's and 2 0r 3 nt.ch. I believe....then she had another litter out of doc....then when she was a couple years older she produced a litter out of ace that produced 3 dual grand champs.....so I don't see where the age affected her....and even the next litter she had contained 2 dogs that made gr.nt.ch. when she was even older.

Posted by Pastor Mike on 03-01-2013 03:05 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
I would like to know about the Rat x Raven cross from the Rabble guys.
It has to be one of the top 5 crosses for titled dogs in the redbone breed, but those dogs are from different litters I think. Does anyone have the numbers and titles of dogs from each cross so we can compare 1st cross to 2nd, 3rd,4th, and 5th crosses and see if they got better as far as number of titled dogs in repeat crosses or if the first cross produced the most titles of any of the repeat crosses.
Also, what about the Rocky x Maggie cross and some other well known crosses that were repeated?

I do know that the rat/raven cross produced really nice dogs each time the cross was made and titled dogs from each time the cross was made. Unfortunately, I don't know the breakdown of the numbers from each cross. I know that Tom would talk about it quite a bit when we would be visiting. There were still dogs out there out of the cross that actually had wins on them but the owners never finished them. One was in west virginia and only needed a 4th or better to finish but the guy who owned him was afraid something would happen to him. I hunted with him a couple of times and I saw the same characteristics as rabble and lexus. Tom also would mention that the first couple of crosses, they didn't care who bought the pups, they just needed to be able to keep buying dog food. Tom said he really didn't understand at first how successful the cross really was, but he decided to keep making the cross and it just kept working.

Chris Snyder had lost a nice female from the rat/raven cross and had contacted Tom about finding another. Tom started researching and contacted a guy he had sold a female pup to just for a pet. The guy was willing to give her back to tom, she was four years old and had never been to the woods. Tom got her, did a few drags for her, sent her to Chris in Iowa.....she started naturally treeing. Her name was Lexus and I ended up buying her from Chris.

I hope that in the future Tom will be able to get back on here and we can hear from him once again. I know that Tom told me that if he would have had the foresight to know to try and get those early pups into competition hunters hands that there would have been alot more titled offspring from the cross and as well from the repeat crosses.

I know this may not be the exact answers being looked for about the cross but it's about all I can offer from memory from just having conversations with tom. Like I said, I sure hope tom will be able to communicate once again in the near future.

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Posted by oklared on 03-01-2013 03:06 AM:

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 03:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
Y2KD AND DEHASS ROWDY

What are the numbers of titled dogs from each cross between these two dogs?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 03:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Pastor Mike
I do know that the rat/raven cross produced really nice dogs each time the cross was made and titled dogs from each time the cross was made. Unfortunately, I don't know the breakdown of the numbers from each cross. I know that Tom would talk about it quite a bit when we would be visiting. There were still dogs out there out of the cross that actually had wins on them but the owners never finished them. One was in west virginia and only needed a 4th or better to finish but the guy who owned him was afraid something would happen to him. I hunted with him a couple of times and I saw the same characteristics as rabble and lexus. Tom also would mention that the first couple of crosses, they didn't care who bought the pups, they just needed to be able to keep buying dog food. Tom said he really didn't understand at first how successful the cross really was, but he decided to keep making the cross and it just kept working.

Chris Snyder had lost a nice female from the rat/raven cross and had contacted Tom about finding another. Tom started researching and contacted a guy he had sold a female pup to just for a pet. The guy was willing to give her back to tom, she was four years old and had never been to the woods. Tom got her, did a few drags for her, sent her to Chris in Iowa.....she started naturally treeing. Her name was Lexus and I ended up buying her from Chris.

I hope that in the future Tom will be able to get back on here and we can hear from him once again. I know that Tom told me that if he would have had the foresight to know to try and get those early pups into competition hunters hands that there would have been alot more titled offspring from the cross and as well from the repeat crosses.

I know this may not be the exact answers being looked for about the cross but it's about all I can offer from memory from just having conversations with tom. Like I said, I sure hope tom will be able to communicate once again in the near future.

Thanks for the info Mike, I always wondered about that particular cross. I thought it might possibly have been an example of one where a repeat cross produced more titled dogs than the 1st cross. I too hope Tom is able to once again communicate on this forum and maybe he can answer that question for us.....Shane

Posted by Pastor Mike on 03-01-2013 03:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Thanks for the info Mike, I always wondered about that particular cross. I thought it might possibly have been an example of one where a repeat cross produced more titled dogs than the 1st cross. I too hope Tom is able to once again communicate on this forum and maybe he can answer that question for us.....Shane

I know that grnt rebel and ntch lexus was out of the last cross from rat/raven. the dog I mentioned above that had a first place and a few other places but never finished was also out of the last cross.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 03:42 AM:

Here is another little tidbit that I was reminded of on the supercross thread.
Most of you are familiar with Russ Bellar's Get Ahead Little Red. She dominated the big hunts for a short time before she was killed by a car. Bellar has said he would give a hundred thousand dollars for another dog like her. Well about a year and a half ago he and the man who is partners with on little reds mother decided to breed her. Now they could have went back to little reds daddy and made a repeat cross....but they didn't. Why? Well, I know why. Here is a walker man who has owned as many big time winners and world champions as anyone and has made probably hundreds of crosses over the years. But he has learned the same thing that many others who refuse to believe old wives tails and other such non fact based nonsense.....repeat crosses rarely if ever work as good as the first cross....
I am open minded and can be easily persuaded to change my views on this subject....but its going to take hard facts to change my mind after studying so many cases of repeat cross failures. I hope the rest of you can also look at this topic objectively and form an opinion based on facts and not fiction. Think of the missed opportunities with dogs who have already proven they can reproduce by making repeat crosses that almost never work as well as the first one. What if they had been bred to 4 or 5 different dogs who were also great reproducers?

Posted by glucking on 03-01-2013 03:44 AM:

what litter was rabble out of could the best reproducer be out of a repeat cross

Posted by timber hunter on 03-01-2013 03:50 AM:

Shane

Well share some of the data then, so we can see it! I think your theory is more of an opinion rather than a theory as well!!

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 03:50 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Pastor Mike
I know that grnt rebel and ntch lexus was out of the last cross from rat/raven. the dog I mentioned above that had a first place and a few other places but never finished was also out of the last cross.

I hope we can someday get the actual number on this cross...it may be the first example of a repeat cross being equal to or better than the first that i have been able to find. I do have a theory that in rare cases, where a parent or both parents are heavy linebred and/or are dominant prepotent reproducers....that they might actually be able to pull it off...but have yet to see an undisputable example of it. Maybe this will turn out to be the first

Posted by rickp on 03-01-2013 04:02 AM:

Trying to reproduce from multiple offspring animals is difficult. I don't have any numbers so it's just theory a cross between two dogs that produces coonhounds. The chances of a second cross producing coonhounds has to a lot more than crossing with just another dog
.Now if you have a dog with a lot of potential and cross it with other dogs with potential not only do you have genetics working for you but more people excited about each litter from the different crosses . That would take good genes and add more human input. Nothing wrong with that but a cross that worked would have to have a good chance to work again.

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Posted by timber hunter on 03-01-2013 04:03 AM:

Shane

"Where is the proof john? Without proof that theory is just a theory? I have found hundreds of example to show it does not work...just asking for a few that shows that it does.....it should be that hard...maybe Tim can get a few from Dave Dean since he doesn't think we have any knowlegable redbone breeders???
Lets stick to the facts that can be proven....not opinions."

The theory that you are talking about is also faulty if your basing it only on hounds that were competition hunted.

The truth is that if you only consider competition dogs and not all of the hounds (in the litter) that were made from the cross (s), then its not accurate! If you are not taking into consideration all the hounds that made coondogs, again it's not accurate! And in order to back up your theory you need the complete stats from a particular cross otherwise your stats are scewed.

Add on top of that, what about the pups never got opportunity to get hunted add in some got killed or died. A good accountant and mathematician once told me you can make numbers say anything you want.

I find a theory based mainly on hounds that were only put in competition to be a very weak theory at best.

I do know one thing UKC would love your theory!!

Also, just debating here, I hope you can still feel the love guys!!

Bless ya John

Posted by Kevin Jackson on 03-01-2013 04:09 AM:

My first two hounds were sisters from two different litters. The one from the second cross was a better dog overall but both were nice dogs that caught me a lot of game. I've hunted with 3 dogs from the Rat xRaven cross many nights and they were coon dogs. Two were Gr.Nt. and one was Nt.Ch. I also got to see Rabble go and he was a nice dog and a Gr.Nt. I hunted with one other female from the Rat x Raven cross and the one night I saw her she hunted out and treed a coon. I think she was a Nt.Ch. These dogs were from different litters and were all nice dogs that had titles. I enjoy hunting the hunts and putting titles on dogs but just because a dog isn't put in the hunts doesn't mean they didn't turn out. Numbers and titles are useful tools but there are plenty of "handlers" out there that can title a dog. Also everyone has a different opinion on what a good dog is. I'm not a breeder or very knowledgeable about genetics. I mostly make a cross when I need a pup and most of my pups go to big game hunters and pleasure hunters but I've never had a call saying someone didn't like their pup. I made one cross three times and never noticed the pups got any better or worse. When put in the woods and exposed to the desired game they did their job. The two year old male I'm hunting now is the nicest two year old I've ever snapped a leash on and he is from a repeat cross. Pups from the first cross and second cross that were given the chance to do what is bred into them did it and from the reports I have back they are doing good. Mine is the only pup that will ever see a hunt but it doesn't make the others any less of a dog. There aren't many hunts out here. We have hunts 6 weekends a year and they are about 250 miles away from me and I'm closer than most guys out here. Makes it tough for most to put titles on a dog. I haven't in my limited experience noticed a difference in the quality of dogs from successive crosses. I've hunted with some big name dogs in other parts of the country. It's tough to judge a dog in two hours of one night but the one thing I've noticed is they are all just dogs same as mine. A top handler can do a lot more with an average dog than an average handler can do with a top dog for the most part. We all like win slips, trophies, and that coveted title in front of a dogs name but it isn't the only measuring stick of a dogs ability. Unless one could gather up all the pups from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd cross etc. and hunt them against each other how would we ever know? I'm just happy when a dog I raise wins a little in the hunts or trails an old lion track for miles on end and trees that lion and stays treed all day until I get there or works a bobcat through some of the purest hell on earth and catches it and holds it for hours on end waiting for me to get there. Those pups don't know which cross they are from, only that there is something ingrained in them that makes them run to catch and tree to stay. Sorry for the book and to make it short I haven't seen a difference in the quality of pups from successive litters, they are all pretty similar in build, voice, tempermant, brains, and ability.

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Posted by timber hunter on 03-01-2013 04:18 AM:

Kevin

I totally agree with the last part of your post!

"A top handler can do a lot more with an average dog than an average handler can do with a top dog for the most part. We all like win slips, trophies, and that coveted title in front of a dogs name but it isn't the only measuring stick of a dogs ability. Unless one could gather up all the pups from the 1st, 2nd, 3rd cross etc. and hunt them against each other how would we ever know? I'm just happy when a dog I raise wins a little in the hunts or trails an old lion track for miles on end and trees that lion and stays treed all day until I get there or works a bobcat through some of the purest hell on earth and catches it and holds it for hours on end waiting for me to get there. Those pups don't know which cross they are from, only that there is something ingrained in them that makes them run to catch and tree to stay. Sorry for the book and to make it short I haven't seen a difference in the quality of pups from successive litters, they are all pretty similar in build, voice, tempermant, brains, and ability."

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-01-2013 04:32 AM:

Re: Shane

quote:
Originally posted by timber hunter
"Where is the proof john? Without proof that theory is just a theory? I have found hundreds of example to show it does not work...just asking for a few that shows that it does.....it should be that hard...maybe Tim can get a few from Dave Dean since he doesn't think we have any knowlegable redbone breeders???
Lets stick to the facts that can be proven....not opinions."

The theory that you are talking about is also faulty if your basing it only on hounds that were competition hunted.

The truth is that if you only consider competition dogs and not all of the hounds (in the litter) that were made from the cross (s), then its not accurate! If you are not taking into consideration all the hounds that made coondogs, again it's not accurate! And in order to back up your theory you need the complete stats from a particular cross otherwise your stats are scewed.

Add on top of that, what about the pups never got opportunity to get hunted add in some got killed or died. A good accountant and mathematician once told me you can make numbers say anything you want.

I find a theory based mainly on hounds that were only put in competition to be a very weak theory at best.

I do know one think UKC would love your theory!!

Also, just debating here, I hope you can still feel the love guys!!

Bless ya John

John...I can find plenty of proof it doesnt work....shouldnt be that hard to find proof it does.
I asked this question be considered using competition dogs with titles because those titles are proof that can be found in records. When you talk about pleasure dogs there is no way to substantiate the number.
By starting out using 1st time crosses that have produced at least 2-3 titled dogs to compare repeat crosses to...you have already established that the owner of the female had no problem getting at least some of the first litter in the hands of competition hunters....so would you have us believe that no proof can be found on repeat crosses because in almost every case there is a host of reasons why those pups did not go to competition hunters or got killed etc?
I think there is an even better chance that they went to competition hunters because alot of those guys look for proven crosses because they think that gives them an advantage and it might be a sure thing....it worked once...why wouldn't it work a 2nd or 3rd time? Well show me some proof....and alot of it to offset all the proof I have found to the contrary and I will change my mind about repeat crosses....

Posted by timber hunter on 03-01-2013 04:44 AM:

Shane

I hear what your saying, but your theory is still based on so many variables. I really do not see how it can be accurate. The only way that you would ever be able to prove this theory completely is get that proven cross, raise every pup in every litter, train every single one of them and then log all the information. Have a bunch of guys lined up to campaign them and see how it all works out!

I would guess this would take up to 10 years. If you have the money and the cross, you could really learn a lot. When you were done, I would say you would then be able to write a book and maybe get rich, hehe!!

Without doing that for me it's just a whole bunch of stats that really can be made to look a certain way!

My Father-in-law once raised and trained a whole litter of Bluetick's and all of the pups turned out to be coondogs. I think he made all of the ones he kept after he had them trained into NITECH or GRNITE. He never made the cross again, kinda a shame!

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