UKC Forums - no good blue studs since jr??

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-- no good blue studs since jr?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928308908)

Posted by Okie Hunter on 03-20-2013 05:38 PM:

Marketing...

I'm going to throw a few things out there for everyone to ponder.

I think the point Mr. Moore is trying to convey isn't the fact that red is better than blue. He is trying to state the fact that a red colored English stud has a more viable market than a blue one. I agree with him under that premise and here's why.

If you look at all the English studs that have produced a great number of pups, most are red in color. I am merely talking total number of pups here, not the overall quality. Blue Boy II (Junior) produced over 1,000 pups and he was blue, but it was after he made the final four in the ACHA World Hunt for the second year in a row that helped Jr in getting a lot of those females bred. I think you will find that very few blue colored studs have produced more than 1,000 pups, even 500 for that matter.

I am one of those that can speak from experience in the marketability of a red stud versus a blue stud. In the mid to late nineties, I studded a UKC Grand Nite blue english with an amazing pedigree. I advertised him a lot back then and he threw some winners. However, he only sired a little over 200 pups. He was advertised during the same time line as Michigan Swamp Rooster and Rooster bred ten times the number of females to what I bred to my blue male.

I am willing to bet that there isn't a blue male in the last fifteen years that has sired over 300 pups.

Me, I couldn't care less what color I am leading. I have had good blues, reds and tri-coloreds. But, having said that and my experience with promoting a blue stud in the past, I doubt I will ever have another blue stud for the public. It is too much of an uphill battle to climb. You almost have to win the World Hunt to have success with promoting a blue stud in today's day and age.

I think the topic of there "isn't any good blue studs since Jr" was taken out of context. The real basis of the opinion, I believe, was it is much harder to have success studding a blue male than it is a red one.

Hope I didn't upset anyone and was able to shed some light on the subject based on my experience.

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Posted by willard on 03-20-2013 06:47 PM:

blue studs

you are right on the money about studding a english blue dog me and my hunting buddy run the ttop dog on here at stud some but unless a person comes to hunt with him or draws him in a hunt they dont pay much attention but i assure you he is a top of the line hound that produces top of the line dogs if bred to a good female.ttop has a huge mouth that usually will make the walker men say what the heck is thatl great looks and feet and temperment cold nosed hard going track dog second to none and minds better than the kids do lol! he is one of the behind the barn dogs that could impact the breed tremendously .GOOD POST

Posted by Thomas Echelberger on 03-20-2013 07:13 PM:

Blue English

You just described my sons dog Scouty .

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Posted by Dustin Myers on 03-20-2013 07:50 PM:

Re: thats

quote:
Originally posted by Randy Crane
what im saying thats the problem. people wont bred because hes blue or he aint all grand or aint world ch...go to the woods with them big dogs and go home laughing. ive hunting against alot of them they dont look that good when they draw out with a coondog.no matter what color they are treeing real live coon is the name of the game were i come from.coondog is a word i dont use loosely..

Well said Randy.

It's one thing to have a personal preference for a certain color and there's nothing wrong with that. But it seems to me that if more breeders would focus more of their attention on which hounds and bloodlines would help improve the quality of the puppies from there litters, rather than making breeding decisions based on what sells the best and is more promotable to the public, the breed as a whole would benefit from it. In my opinion it's simple. Is the main reason your making a specific cross to try to produce the best hounds you possibly can, with the most traits you like and the least amount of faults possible. Or are you making the cross because the pups will be easy to sell to the public for whatever the reason, color, all grand, big title.

I believe everyone should be able to hunt and breed whatever type and color of hounds they chose, and if we all liked the same thing it would makes things kinda boring. If someone likes all there hounds a certain color or to have an all grand pedigree, there's nothing wrong with that. But I also believe that those types of choices have far more to do with personal preference, and little to do with improving their hounds.

I understand that when you make a cross you want to know that you will be able to place the extra pups with people, so your not stuck with them. And if having them all red or all grand helps with that, then I guess I can see why someone might prefer that. But I don't feel that those things have much to do with helping improve a line or breed of hounds. One thing I can never figure out is that when people call me to book a pup, I get about twice as many who specifically want a blue pup as I do people who want a red one.

These are just my personal views and opinions and are in no way meant to offend anyone.

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Posted by Randy Crane on 03-20-2013 08:19 PM:

dustin

i agree with you on that myself i get alot more request for the blue ones to.everyone who as made comments has made some real good points.keeping them opions coming im kind of enjoying this.lol thought it was just me glad to hear they are still people breeding top hounds and color dont matter thats how you keep the breed on top.jmo

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Posted by bolockey on 03-20-2013 09:03 PM:

blues

i have owned 2 treeing walkers now have a redtick english love them all but i have seen where some ppl love the way a bluetick looks but dont like the way that breed hunt so they look for a blue eng since as everyone knows eng throws blutick color

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Posted by TWISTER on 03-20-2013 11:04 PM:

Come to southern Indiana and I will show you a good blue one!

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Posted by Steve Dwyer on 03-20-2013 11:51 PM:

Randy and to all who have commented

There are good opinions on all of the posts, But what gets me is there are alot of blue studs out there that are being bred to some great females now a days. One thing in general is location is also a big part of the stud world if you live so far west or way to north or south its hard to get them good females bred. I do believe if you are in a good location you do get more hits. This BS on red and white or redticks come on that is all certain people see is the Big $$$$ bs for producing just those colors, Or World to World or All Grand hypothetical lmao. Quit buying those finished dogs or off others that already have had there chance with these dogs. Start from one of your own even if off your stud and finish it yourself we all know who buys all the finished ones way easier isnt it? I asked Richard if Jesse lee won the World before the event and he said who ever won it he would have bred to so that wouldnt have been all Grand but World to World. Some of us dont care and never will breed just to make the all mighty $$ most of the people with a brain breed coondog to coondog that is what will make our breed better some are good reproducing all grands but far and few. And with enough $$ we can finish any of our hounds if we wanted to but the hypocrits of our sport will ruin our breed sooner or later, Myself and im sure alot of you on this post think more about the true hound to hound cross and keeping something off your line and going where ever it takes our line good or bad. So for the ones looking just for the $$ keep doing what your doing the true men of our sport will continue making the better balanced hound jmo!!

Randy ask the good ole girl scout himself why did he want to find his old dogs replacement,cause he couldnt be finished in this state so he sold him lol. maybe the next one will be better than the last one was..

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Posted by Claude Coville on 03-21-2013 12:24 AM:

RANDY YOU SIR HAVE SOME REAL HOUNDS

I HAVE HEARD OF YOU LONG BEFOR THIS POST BLUE JUST HASNT WORKED FOR CLAUDE COVILLE THAT NOT TO SAY PEOPLE DONT LIKE THEM I HAVE BEEN THE SAME FOR MY HOLE LIFE ON BLUE NOTHING NEW HERE THE PEDIGREE ON YOGI IS A LIST OF MOST IF NOT ALL THE GREAT BREEDERS BEFOR ME AND YOU IAM SURE THEY WERENT JUST LOOKING AT PAPERS ANY ONE THAT WAS OR IS ANY ONE CAN BE FOUND IN THAT FIVE GEN ALL GRAND DOG AND HE IS BRED TO REPRODUCE HOUNDS THAT SHOULD AND ARE WINNING .RANDY I WILL SEE YOU AT THE GRAND AMERICAN NEXT YEAR AND WE CAN TALK DOGS I WILL BY COFFEE AND YOU CAN BY DINNER LOL YOUR FRIEND IN THIS SPORT ...CLAUDE COVILLE MADE FOR SOME GOOD READING AND THE BOARD NEEDS MORE OF THIS IT WILL HELP THE BREED IN THE LONG RUN RANDY STAY SAFE AND HAVE SOME GOOD HUNTS

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Posted by Randy Crane on 03-21-2013 12:51 AM:

i heard that

at lest im not the lone ranger.lol i just hope we can keep them english coon hounds on top thats the way they are registered..good luck to everyone at sed wished we could go but the almighty dollar sayes no...as pa pa said these hover days are killing us.lol

Posted by allenglish33 on 03-21-2013 01:38 AM:

aman

To bad its all about the money and all this and all that. Titles

Posted by allenglish33 on 03-21-2013 01:46 AM:

u right

I have had grands worst I ever had my ass kicked was by a country coon dog one that never been in a hunt most people who don't worry about color hunt for the pleasure and not the glory or someone patting them on back will kick your but we need to quit worrying about color or looks we may be in the winners circle. Have good locked

Posted by Thomas Echelberger on 03-21-2013 11:51 AM:

Blue studs

Someone could retract a statement about blue dogs and say yes there are plenty good blue stud dogs all over the us from almost every line . People get too wrapped up in one line and get to over look how good others dogs are for many reasons .

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Posted by allenglish33 on 03-21-2013 12:58 PM:

blue

Steve you hit the nail on the head. Nuffsaid

Posted by allenglish33 on 03-22-2013 12:07 AM:

lol!!!

Among other things lol!!!!!"!"!!!!!

Posted by Richard Moore on 03-22-2013 12:28 AM:

Re: No good blue studs since JR

quote:
Originally posted by Thomas Echelberger
Who was the one making this claim ? Seems like a awe-full stupid thing to say .

The problem with this tread is that is not what was said. What I said is that the last Blue English that was used heavy as a stud dog was GRNTCH Blue Boy 11. [[ The reason people used him was because he went to the final four of the ACHA World Hunt two years in a row.]] That was a first. He also reproduced. Before JR there was Boyds Little Joe. Boyd little Joe put more pups on the ground than JR. JR however is the last Blue English that has been used heavy by the general public as a Stud dog. You should also note that Mr. Roland Dickey bred him to Red Females. His next Stud dog a son of JR was GRNTCH Blue Boy Red. Amos was Red. All the rest of his stud dogs were Red. I never said there were no good Blue stud dogs since Jr.

Posted by Richard Moore on 03-22-2013 12:45 AM:

Not For color

Most people bred to a stud first because he is a winner. If He is a reproducer,they come back. If not they do not. My statement still stands. Junior produced One thousand and thirty two pups. No Blue Stud has come close to that since. None

Posted by Claude Coville on 03-22-2013 01:24 AM:

HEY THIS IS HOW THIS STARTED

AMEN TO THAT RICHARD LOL
I THINK OPENED DISCUSSION ON ANY TOPIC IS GOOD FOR THE MIND AND BREED THERE IS A LOT TO LEARN IF A PERSON IS WILLING TO LET THEM SELFS SEE BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN KEEP THEM ENGLISH AND KEEP THEM IN THE WOODS AND IN THE WINNER CIRCLE GOOD LUCK TO ALL THAT HAVE A ENGLISH YOUNG OR OLD IN THE ENGLISH DAYS THIS WEEKEND RANDY CRANE WE WILL MAKE YOU POPULAR WHETHER YOU WANT IT OR NOT LOL

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Posted by Randy Crane on 03-22-2013 01:59 AM:

well it

took you long enough you said if i knowed one on the level of jr.in winning or reproduing. you said share some names so i shared some names of winners and reproducers..and no response and they are a bunch more great blues .look at the ones on here that have been mentioned.i knew r.f dickey all so i bred to amos and his sire and he bred alot of red and blue females .a fine man but for $200 he didnt care what color she was.and another thing you said speaking as a breeder not a hunter your quote 95%of english men want anything but blue.and claude i was borned and bred myself to be a legend.lol

Posted by Steve Dwyer on 03-22-2013 02:05 AM:

Richard Moore
UKC Forum Member
Registered: Oct 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 684

She is what was left.
Hello Steve. My breeding program has always centered around the Red and white Hound. This is because of my old Rocky Hound. I have been breeding since 1988. I never get a request for a blue pup. It is always For Red or Black and white. With some hunters color does not matter but it does with most . The last and only Blue dog that was used heavy as a stud dog was GrNtCh Blue boy Boy Two. He also went to the Final Four in the ACHA World Hunt.Two years in a row. This was an almost impossible task.He also reproduced. I would never stud a blue male. I will own and breed a black and White female. [[[ As relates to this female,there were Four females in the litter. three were red and one black and white. The buyers wanted the red ones so I was left with the black and white. ]]] I have no doubt she will produce red when bred to Rocky again. As relates to Jessie lee, I have heard he is a good hound. I breed for All Grands or World Champion pups. That said. I have owned some outstanding Blue, Black and White and Tri Colored females.

Last edited by Richard Moore on 03-21-2013 at 06:17 PM

Wow this is getting better as it goes on, What a hypocrite i just went back and read it and it was just recently edited today around 6pm so Randy it was stated there wasnt a good blue dog till Jr he edited before he responded on this post lmao cant trust a mans word farther than you can spit. And this year i will be hammering the nail to someone all i have to say grandpa time to play the game better have your tighty whities on big boy lol....

Posted by Randy Crane on 03-22-2013 02:26 AM:

thanks steve

i dont know how to work this thing much nathan and geenas been teaching me.i love the jr.line still hunt it thats alot of what got me started with english but to think hes the only blue dog to get in the winners circle or to reproduce is a joke and i dont think 95%of the english men go to one kennel.lol we are hunters and breeders mainly for ourself and friends .we got more than one behind the barn.lol yea i forgot that he stuck with a black&white pup world to world nobody wanted it.the only world to world cross in history.lol

Posted by Richard Moore on 03-22-2013 08:34 AM:

Re: well it

quote:
Originally posted by Randy Crane
took you long enough you said if i knowed one on the level of jr.in winning or reproduing. you said share some names so i shared some names of winners and reproducers..and no response and they are a bunch more great blues .look at the ones on here that have been mentioned.i knew r.f dickey all so i bred to amos and his sire and he bred alot of red and blue females .a fine man but for $200 he didnt care what color she was.and another thing you said speaking as a breeder not a hunter your quote 95%of english men want anything but blue.and claude i was borned and bred myself to be a legend.lol

I also knew Dickey and he also knew me. Dickey had red females of his own to breed to Junior. I owned a number of Junior bred females accross the years. When a dog is as great as Junior was and reproduces like he did the public will seek the offspring of the dog. i wish someone had some semen off old Junior. Yes ninty five percent of the people who buy pups want a Red pup. Maybe one day that will change but that is still the case today.

Posted by Richard Moore on 03-22-2013 08:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Dwyer
Richard Moore
UKC Forum Member
Registered: Oct 2003
Location: New York
Posts: 684

She is what was left.
Hello Steve. My breeding program has always centered around the Red and white Hound. This is because of my old Rocky Hound. I have been breeding since 1988. I never get a request for a blue pup. It is always For Red or Black and white. With some hunters color does not matter but it does with most . The last and only Blue dog that was used heavy as a stud dog was GrNtCh Blue boy Boy Two. He also went to the Final Four in the ACHA World Hunt.Two years in a row. This was an almost impossible task.He also reproduced. I would never stud a blue male. I will own and breed a black and White female. [[[ As relates to this female,there were Four females in the litter. three were red and one black and white. The buyers wanted the red ones so I was left with the black and white. ]]] I have no doubt she will produce red when bred to Rocky again. As relates to Jessie lee, I have heard he is a good hound. I breed for All Grands or World Champion pups. That said. I have owned some outstanding Blue, Black and White and Tri Colored females.

Last edited by Richard Moore on 03-21-2013 at 06:17 PM

Wow this is getting better as it goes on, What a hypocrite i just went back and read it and it was just recently edited today around 6pm so Randy it was stated there wasnt a good blue dog till Jr he edited before he responded on this post lmao cant trust a mans word farther than you can spit. And this year i will be hammering the nail to someone all i have to say grandpa time to play the game better have your tighty whities on big boy lol....

The edit on that page was an addition not a change. It is the public not you or I that decide what they want.

Posted by Richard Moore on 03-22-2013 09:06 AM:

Re: HEY THIS IS HOW THIS STARTED

quote:
Originally posted by Claude Coville
AMEN TO THAT RICHARD LOL
I THINK OPENED DISCUSSION ON ANY TOPIC IS GOOD FOR THE MIND AND BREED THERE IS A LOT TO LEARN IF A PERSON IS WILLING TO LET THEM SELFS SEE BOTH SIDES OF THE COIN KEEP THEM ENGLISH AND KEEP THEM IN THE WOODS AND IN THE WINNER CIRCLE GOOD LUCK TO ALL THAT HAVE A ENGLISH YOUNG OR OLD IN THE ENGLISH DAYS THIS WEEKEND RANDY CRANE WE WILL MAKE YOU POPULAR WHETHER YOU WANT IT OR NOT LOL

Claude you are right. Discussion is a good thing. This tread has its merits but the premise on which it was started is false. Maybe a Blue English will win the World Hunt this year. I have high hopes for my World To World female in the future. Keep It English. All The Best Randy.

Posted by Randy Crane on 03-22-2013 10:50 AM:

richard

95% of the peoople dont just want a red pup maybe in your world or mind but in the real world i dont think so i like a red dog to but i breed for coon dogs not color.and this thread was started because you stuck your foot in your mouth.i bred tess the#1 female 4 times rapper the first time rain2nd time moodys chopper 3rd time 4th time wildcountry luke.two redtics and two blue studs.you still aint answered the reply to your question on no good blue studs since jr.i said rapper thunder blue big river jesse bruno the list goes on look at the names on just this thread.are none theses dogs winners or reproducers?nothing false about this thread period and as i told claude if any of the ones i know that hunt blue english including myself win the world they aint enough money in ny for yall to get some..i have and all ways will keep it english what ever the color ..i dont make a dime off dogs and the public or no one else decides what color i hunt or breed .thank you

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