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-- inbreeding (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928332219)

Inbreeding...

The short answer is that I'm producing dogs that are making the platform for producing super-dogs just as you said. I'm currently working out the structure of my kennel for the next phase.

Previously, I have guaranteed every dog because I knew when I produced dogs that fell short of being superdogs I knew I would need to get the next dog out to be tested. This part of the program has all been about reshuffling the deck in order to find the "one better" dogs. Interestingly enough, all of the best dogs came out of the first crosses of a pair just like the old breeders tales preidict. My theory on that is that it is due to a difference in the immune response of the female to the stud over successive breedings. I'm convinced that I'm on to something here and if I were in college still, I would develop a thesis around this theory and make some waves.

Any how, I'm through the first stage and excited to get onto the next but I'm still having a hard time finding another line to bounce off of. I've chosen the Myer's Bone Hollow Scout x Abbott's Mtn State Sadie dogs to work the other side with but the problem I'm having is that I'm short on the cash to talk one of the guys that have these females out of their dogs. It's a timing issue that doesn't line up with having more kids well. I've had to go in backwards so to speak. While I would like to have one of those females to have here, I'm using Abbott's Mtn. State Bandit on Northern blue Music. The next breeding will be on Rachel II but I have not yet decided who she will be bred to. I'm anxious to get moving on but I just can't get it out of my head that she should be bred to Sport...which is likely what I'll do. Here is the pedigree on that one:

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----------------------------------
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---------------------------- Clark's Brush Hog
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----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------- Clark's Blue Lep
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----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---------------------------- Clark's Diamond
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
------------------ Wick's Camo Jug
---------------------------------------- Kingsbury's Blue Lep
---------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Thor
---------------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Jude
----------------------------- Clark's Leaper
---------------------------------------- Clark's Old Sam
----------------------------------- Okaw Valley Cyclone
---------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Jane
----------------------- Clark's Sadie
----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------- Essenprice's Queen
----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
------------ Ganus' Hoosier Blue Jug
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Tom Tom
----------------------------------- Clark's Wild Bill
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Rocket
----------------------------- Hoosier Captain
--------------------------------------- Buckhorn Valley Matt
----------------------------------- Ark Valley Queenie
--------------------------------------- Sadie Mae
------------------------ Hoosier Hank
---------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Stubbs
----------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
---------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Nancy (S)
----------------------------- Ganus' Sparklin Sadie
--------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
----------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
------------------ Sparklin Susie
--------------------------------------- England's Little Lep
---------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
--------------------------------------- England's Sheba
----------------------------- Okaw Valley Hammer
--------------------------------------- Buckhorn Valley Matt
---------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
--------------------------------------- England's Spring Valley Delilah II
----------------------- Ganus' Hoosier Music
--------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Stubbs
---------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
--------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Nancy (S)
----------------------------- Hoosier Cadillac
--------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
---------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
------ Floyd River Blue Sport
----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------- Clark's Brush Hog
----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------- Clark's Blue Lep
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
----------------------------- Clark's Diamond
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
------------------ Wick's Camo Jug
----------------------------------------- Kingsbury's Blue Lep
----------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Thor
----------------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Jude
----------------------------- Clark's Leaper
----------------------------------------- Clark's Old Sam
----------------------------------- Okaw Valley Cyclone
----------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Jane
------------------------ Clark's Sadie
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
----------------------------- Essenprice's Queen
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
------------- Schulze's Souixie
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Tom Tom
----------------------------------- Clark's Wild Bill
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Rocket
----------------------------- Hoosier Captain
--------------------------------------- Buckhorn Valley Matt
----------------------------------- Ark Valley Queenie
--------------------------------------- Sadie Mae
------------------------ Hoosier Hank
---------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Stubbs
----------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
---------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Nancy (S)
----------------------------- Ganus' Sparklin Sadie
--------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
----------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
------------------ Sparklin Susie
--------------------------------------- England's Little Lep
---------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
--------------------------------------- England's Sheba
----------------------------- Okaw Valley Hammer
--------------------------------------- Buckhorn Valley Matt
---------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
--------------------------------------- England's Spring Valley Delilah II
----------------------- Ganus' Hoosier Music
--------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Stubbs
---------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
--------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Nancy (S)
----------------------------- Hoosier Cadillac
--------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
---------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
Sport X Rachel II
----------------------------------------
---------------------------------- Clark's Brush Hog
----------------------------------------
----------------------------- Clark's Blue Lep
----------------------------------------
---------------------------------- Clark's Diamond
----------------------------------------
----------------------- Wick's Camo Jug
---------------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Thor
---------------------------------- Clark's Leaper
---------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Cyclone
----------------------------- Clark's Sadie
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------- Essenprice's Queen
----------------------------------------
------------------ Clark's Magic Mouse
---------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Tom Tom
----------------------------------- Clark's Wild Bill
---------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Rocket
----------------------------- Hoosier Captain
---------------------------------------- Buckhorn Valley Matt
----------------------------------- Ark Valley Queenie
---------------------------------------- Sadie Mae
------------------------ Ganus' Magnum Maggie
---------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
----------------------------------- Okaw Valley Hammer
---------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
----------------------------- Ganus' Hoosier Music
---------------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
---------------------------------- Hoosier Cadillac
---------------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
------------ Northern Sparky Copper
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------- Clark's Brush Hog
----------------------------------------
----------------------------- Clark's Blue Lep
-----------------------------------------
----------------------------------- Clark's Diamond
-----------------------------------------
------------------------ Wick's Camo Jug
----------------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Thor
----------------------------------- Clark's Leaper
----------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Cyclone
------------------------------ Clark's Sadie
-----------------------------------------
----------------------------------- Essenprice's Queen
-----------------------------------------
------------------ Schulze's Souixie
---------------------------------------- Clark's Wild Bill
----------------------------------- Hoosier Captain
---------------------------------------- Ark Valley Queenie
----------------------------- Hoosier Hank
---------------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
----------------------------------- Ganus' Sparklin Sadie
---------------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
----------------------- Sparklin Susie
---------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
----------------------------------- Okaw Valley Hammer
---------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
----------------------------- Ganus' Hoosier Music
---------------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
----------------------------------- Hoosier Cadillac
---------------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
+----- Northern Sparklin Rachel II
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----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---------------------------- Clark's Brush Hog
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------- Clark's Blue Lep
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
---------------------------- Clark's Diamond
----------------------------------------
----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
------------------ Wick's Camo Jug
---------------------------------------- Kingsbury's Blue Lep
---------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Thor
---------------------------------------- Hurricane Valley Jude
----------------------------- Clark's Leaper
---------------------------------------- Clark's Old Sam
----------------------------------- Okaw Valley Cyclone
---------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Jane
----------------------- Clark's Sadie
----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
----------------------------- Essenprice's Queen
----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------
----------------------------------------
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Tom Tom
----------------------------------- Clark's Wild Bill
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Rocket
----------------------------- Hoosier Captain
--------------------------------------- Buckhorn Valley Matt
----------------------------------- Ark Valley Queenie
--------------------------------------- Sadie Mae
------------------------ Hoosier Hank
---------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Stubbs
----------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
---------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Nancy (S)
----------------------------- Ganus' Sparklin Sadie
--------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
----------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
------------------ Sparklin Susie
--------------------------------------- England's Little Lep
---------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
--------------------------------------- England's Sheba
----------------------------- Okaw Valley Hammer
--------------------------------------- Buckhorn Valley Matt
---------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III
--------------------------------------- England's Spring Valley Delilah II
----------------------- Ganus' Hoosier Music
--------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Stubbs
---------------------------------- Foolish Pleasure
--------------------------------------- Kankakee Valley Nancy (S)
----------------------------- Hoosier Cadillac
--------------------------------------- Spring Valley Shiner
---------------------------------- Clark's Dixie
--------------------------------------- Okaw Valley Delilah III

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

david and others. FACT. you will be able to bottle up the ABILITY and great hunting traits. the rest is hard as we know great champions don't all look the same. show champs are easy to breed. I cant stress enough when you make the cross use a young proven female. or use a young female from your own line.in my life of breeding and selling 25 plus well started dogs a year I never kept a female past 2 years of age no matter how good they were. they were sold and there replacements were young proven females YOUTH breeds a way higher percent of quality coon dogs.the older they get there percents of producing a full litter of crackers drops a lot.

dan and others. with a number of lep guys inbreeding there own lines. in time I think you will see these serious lep breeders hook up. and say let just trade one inbred for another inbred in many cases it will just be puppy prices there trading and both with luck will get what there looking for. and this inbred trading only has to happen every 5 to so many years.so at the end of the day all serious breeders get a piece of pie in helping move the breed forward with speed.i should add I just got back into racing pigeons. the first thing I did was track down some of my old stock. I found 3 proven brothers and I mated them to 3 full sisters.certain young out of these will be my base stock for years to come.i will add out of 12 babies from these inbreds iam looking for 3 or 4 crackers the rest will be gone.

David, agree with everything you said. We have a lot in common. My first leopard, cammy(speed trap/mt state sadie) is the best bobcat dog I have owned and I, m trying to reproduce her the best I can. I bought Bolt(rebxpretty girl) as a pup, raised him and bred him to cammy twice with great results. I am now inbreeding the cammy/bolt pups with lots of high hopes. You should come out for a lion hunt this winter, we can see each others dogs in action. Nick

Nick, thanks so much for the offer! I will seriously try to make that happen. For the past seven or eight years I have tried like crazy to go on a lion hunt back home in Colorado and it has never worked out. I go out there almost every year for Christmas but seems like either the snow wouldn't be right or the if we had good snow my buddies witg cat dogs couldn't break free. I swear two or three years in there it would be dry and miserable hunting conditions until the day I absolutely had to go home then it would snow and I would have to fight bad roads all the way home. LOL! Right now I am kind of in a dog slump, the good dogs are all old, granded out or in Shine's case missing a dang leg and the young dogs are all in that stage were they can look pretty good with company but it is time to single them out and make them do it on there own. Feel like I have been running around like a chicken with head cut off all summer long trying to get my business up and running and have had very little time to hunt these dogs like I should. I have lots if raw talent and potential but most of it is just wasting the summer away in the pen. Hopefuly things will slow down this winter and I will have time to take a few days for myself. A trip to the mountains and a fresh set of cat tracks in the snow may be just what the doctor ordered!

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

Brother x sister

Do you guys think it makes any differance at crossing full brothers x sisters from differant litters vs. Same litter? Do you think anything at all changes?

P.S. just went outside and did my dog chores to discover 7 new additions, I think she prolly has a few more in her as well. Shine x Fancy!

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

D.S.-

As you know, Jughead was a first litter Jug x Susie dog. He produced on every sister he was bred to. He was never bred to any of the sisters from the third litter. The litter that I wish more would have lived longer out of was the Jughead x Chyna litter.

There was a male out of the 4th Jug x Susie litter named Banjo that died at 2 years old that was extraordinarily good and he was looking like the best overall dog in the whole group. There just wasn't anything he couldn't do including rigging. That was a dog to show off with!

There is a dog out in NC that no one has seen yet that looks like a high-tan version of Banjo. He's out of Jughead and Rachel, 1st cross. I'm going to have to track him down and get him back up here.

There are a few other good dogs to move on with but they are pretty hard to get if your wallet is not feeling fat. Who knows though, times are tight and some of those favorite dogs owners loosen up their grip on those good dogs. It's all about timing.

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

On average how many culls are yall getting per litter that are inbred or linebred thanks Brandon

david the only difererence would be the age and heath of the female. other than what I stated before brother and sister is very pure and things at time come out looking like they don't belong in this family. bradon I can only speak for me, once I learned how to select the right dogs to inbreed. I got piles of litters were there was not one cull and I will note my standard is very high. like I stated I don't breed dogs no more I just enjoy the good dog talk and most of the guys on this lep board are full of class to chat dogs with.

I've linebred several crosses but the best of them was from half bro and sis crosses now on inbreeding im looking at crossing full bro and sis cross from the half bro n sis cross u say this is very pure and i believe that but wat about impurities would u not have to know the history for several generations behind these dogs to keep the purity thanks brandon

Not Gospel

quote:

---

Originally posted by GCLC
I've linebred several crosses but the best of them was from half bro and sis crosses now on inbreeding im looking at crossing full bro and sis cross from the half bro n sis cross u say this is very pure and i believe that but wat about impurities would u not have to know the history for several generations behind these dogs to keep the purity thanks brandon

---

keeping the purity by knowing the history.this can be to your benfit. if in the history those lines have been CULLED TO PERFECTION if not its not going to do a whole lot for you purity starts when you start inbreeding as does culling. cory your a somebody to me your my post buddy from the states lol.mike good to here you got good size females for the next generation to use. don't forget at first we don't have to go crazy inbreeding every dog we own.one litter for the newbes of inbreds a year is lots. cross these inbred out. select the best pup from the cross then breed it back into your base family. inbreeding is a tool to bottle up the genes of your super dogs and when crossed out to produce super hunting dogs. so do your best to find inbreds from other lep familys when yous make these crosses. cory in my case I agree 2 million percent parents and gran parents. because a lot of times inbreeding will change all the history in the dogs we use. its like starting a new line away from the history of the dogs on paper.in other words all I need is one super pigeon or super dog not knowing any back ground. and with in a couple years I will have created my own line or family with ability from that super dog or pigeon. in other words I build my own history when I start inbreeding and culling for results.yous will be doing the same.

hey mike VERY VERY GOOD POST

It's hard sometime's being in the Know!!!

This has been a good post, but just be aware that when you stay as close as some of you are doing it. Then some things will start showing up and it will cause issues as in colors and then what do you have some Leopards that can't be registered. And I'm not talking to much white either the sad part is all the work you put into it then if your luck is like mine the one Super Dog will be that one you can't share cause it can't be registered. So I guess if you want some non registered Leopards that would be fine. But how do we take that pup and use it to take the breed to the next level? I guess here's my point we all know there is different stuff in all breeds but when you start going down a road chasing the tail over and over the stuff we don't want to show up WILL start showing up and it won't be one out of a litter it will be 3 or 4 and I know its a fact I've seen it in several litters! JMO

__________________
John Cox
580 284 8378

JOHN thank you for jumping on this topic.and I can see from your post your experience will valued by all. iam not up on the breed standards of the leps but I just thought if they had to much white they couldn't be reg,what other colours or things would pop up that a lep couldn't be reg. at the end of the day you producing a super dog is more important than any piece of paper in my world hats off to you for going down that rd.

Re: It's hard sometime's being in the Know!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leopard58
This has been a good post, but just be aware that when you stay as close as some of you are doing it. Then some things will start showing up and it will cause issues as in colors and then what do you have some Leopards that can't be registered. And I'm not talking to much white either the sad part is all the work you put into it then if your luck is like mine the one Super Dog will be that one you can't share cause it can't be registered. So I guess if you want some non registered Leopards that would be fine. But how do we take that pup and use it to take the breed to the next level? I guess here's my point we all know there is different stuff in all breeds but when you start going down a road chasing the tail over and over the stuff we don't want to show up WILL start showing up and it won't be one out of a litter it will be 3 or 4 and I know its a fact I've seen it in several litters! JMO

---

This has been excellent reading so far. I've very interested in this process (have a Mt Cur with this type of breeding behind him and am planning a litter like this with my big game dogs)

I'm curious, why do the younger females produce better then an older female? I've always liked to hunt mine out for about 3 years before I decide to raise a litter off of them.

And does it matter with the age of the male? Maybe I missed that part.

I've made a couple half brother/sister crosses in the past. I've bred one male to a half sister twice and I lost some size on both male and females in the litter. Not all of them, but about 50%- I then crossed the same male on a different half sister- littermate to the first one- and didn't lose any size. I'm guessing that the second female took more after her dam's side (the side in which they were not related) and the first female took more after the side of the common ancestor. Just guessing tho. I have no clue

__________________
~Melanie Hampton~
OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

Colors

THIS IS HOW THE BREED STANDARD READS TODAY REGARDING COLORS

(COLOR)
Leopard spotted; yellow; black (may have brindle or tan trim); brindle; red and blue or mouse color. Any of these may also have white points and a white collar. No more than one-third white is allowed.

Disqualification: Color that is more than one-third white. Albinism.

The deal is this I agree we can get some super natural dogs by doing this but if you happen to get a pup/dog that looks like a Bluetick or Tri Colored English or even a German short hair what are you going to do with them? You can't Register them or use them in the gene pool to push the Leopard Breed to the top now if your just going to use them for your own use then shucks thats great papers don't tree Game! But if your going to bring them in the Leopard Pool then your wrong period! JMO

__________________
John Cox
580 284 8378

I agree. I'd cull them. Before we bred pups back to parent stock we evaluated their potential.

The pup that best approximated the parent stock that was equal or better than them in ability was bred back in...Father X Daughter....ect.

I agree that dogs that are genetically Leopard that don't meet the breed standard should be eliminated from the gene pool.

That is another reason I am and have been against single registration.

Super dogs can be bred from Leopards that fit the Breed standard just as easily as they can from Leopards that don't. Gene alignment is multi faceted.

Negative hidden recessives can lay buried for up to 50 generations and can suddenly surface if the right combination of genes pair up.

Those are the unwanted traits that we should eliminate, assuming we have started with the best parent stock attainable, with our goal to improve each generation from the generation before.

Exactly that would work!!!!!!!!!!!!

__________________
John Cox
580 284 8378

I've been reading everyone's post there very interesting and really good!

__________________
Mtn. State Leopard Hounds
(304)946-4612
Vote For Coal It's Black!

John,

Not to make more work for you but as the breed standard reads, all dogs with albinism should be disqualified and according to ALBA indications (as with the over 1/3 white) not allowed to be registered. Albinism is not just a white dog with white eyes and a pink nose or even just one of those three characteristics, it's any white in the eye, or any white outside the irsh white that is prevalent in the breed to one degree or another.

In the ALCBA, Randy went right through the vote of the member ship on the issue of white and included "any white on the back". While it was not well excepted by the member ship, it was a show of wisdom on his part. White up on the back of a dog is a result of the piebald gene or albinism. It can come as a result of the irish white gene but there will be well over 1/3 white if the irish white is so extensive as to appear on the back of the dog that it's not worth accounting for. It was a smart move on Randy's part genetically speaking just not business wise.

If someone were to argue that a dog should be stricken from the records based on the current wording, they would be in the right even if the dog only had a slice of white in it's eye. If the ALBA does not want to run into trouble on this one it needs to be changed.

Not to leave you hanging, you might want to consider restricting it to 1/3 white, no white on the back and leave out the albinism because the 1/3 white rule covers albinism adequately. Your in for some real word-smithing if you want to delineate between albinism, irish white and piebald. If you want to go that route...I'm not that far into this thought yet.

__________________
Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

example. racing pigeons. brother to sister then for six generations the sons were always mated back to the mother.most were junk.but one hen from the six generation was what I was looking for. when she was crossed out in a short few years she bred 26 first place winners which is unheard of in the pigeon world. I don't suggest anybody take it this far.oh I will add I had pigeons born with web feet and I had a couple born with there wings backwards.young female old female. the short of it.is it healthy for a 50 year old woman to have children or is it more natures way for the youth to have children. alfa female wolfs or yotes only last a short time on top before there push out by the younger stronger females. besides watching nature my records over all these years have proved beond a doubt the younger females produce a way higher percent of top dogs,easy way for most to check find a super dog male or female. check to see if it came from a young female or a older female etc.dont judge on one super dog judge 25 then you will get a better percent of whats happing.

i have enjoyed this topic. and reading the many good posts.houndy looking leps will take over if there ability is greater. cur looking leps will rule if there abilty is greater. so at the end of the day its in the breeders hands and what he produces.we all RESPECT GREAT DOGS in the bush no matter what breed or colour. what took me half my life. you guys can do in a few short years working together with your line and inbred dogs producing great leps.never forget if we can breed one great dog we can breed 20 great dogs if time permits.its about breeding dogs with natural ability then its about hunting them hard.its hard to improve on a great dog. our goal is maintain the ability in our breeding so we get 20 great dogs..good luck to all. hmm from your posts yous don't need luck yous just need more time for your plans to work. david

I found this on the BGH site. I think it sums up a lot of what has been said about line/inbreeding with the right socialization. Imagine getting 90% results!



Dr. Scott proved more than helpful. In his studies he had uncovered a whole series of critical periods in the life of a puppy which directly affect the way he will behave as an adult. These critical periods apply to all breeds of dogs and fall into five categories:
1) Birth to the 21st day: During this period it is impossible to teach a puppy anything. His brain is like an electrical circuit without power. The puppy's only needs are food, warmth and his mother. Says Pfaffenberger, "This was basic knowledge about dogs which had not even been suspected through the thousands of years in which men and dogs have lived together."
First glimmer
2) The 21st to the 28th day: Abruptly on the 21st day the brain begins to function, and a puppy not only becomes capable of learning but will start to learn whether or not he is taught. During this fourth week a puppy must continue to have the absolute security of his mother; for at no other time in his life will emotional or social upsets (being left alone, frightened by loud noises, moved to a strange place) have as harmful or lasting effect.
3) The 28th to the 49th day: This is the time when a puppy starts to venture from his mother to investigate the world around him. Now he can learn to recognize his master, to respond to voices, to other animals and toys. The end of this period is the best time for a puppy to be weaned and taken to a new owner. Under no circumstances, however, should the puppy be weaned and then left in the kennel with his mother to wonder why he is not feeding as he did before.
4) The 49th to 84th day: At 7 weeks, although the pup is still physically immature, his brain has attained adult form. He can be taught to obey simple commands like sit, come, heel and fetch. But any training at this stage must be informal. The instruction periods must be brief, and there should be no punishment if the puppy fails to respond to a given command. For, during this period, what the puppy learns is not as important as the fact that he learns how to learn. This is also the time when the puppy begins forming his permanent attitudes toward people—those who feed, play with, teach or reprimand him. The kind of relationships he forms will affect his later acceptance of direction and education.
5) The 84th to 112th day: This is the final critical period, the time when the puppy is ready to declare his independence and man and dog decide who is boss. Informal play training must end here and serious adult training begin. However, the advanced training will be fully successful only if simple, informal training occurred earlier.
"Regardless of the inherited differences between breeds," says Dr. Scott, "all dogs, when given proper socialization from 3 weeks to 16 weeks of age, will reach a satisfactory level of behavior."
With Scott's critical periods as a foundation, Pfaffenberger set up a system of testing and training at Guide Dogs for the Blind. Although his program, described in technical detail in a recent booklet published by the American Kennel Club, has been worked out specifically for lead dogs, its broad outlines can easily be applied to all dogs.
Here is the Pfaffenberger formula: •From birth until 5 weeks of age—or during the first two critical periods plus an extra buffer week—a litter should remain with its mother in a small puppy room.
•At 5 weeks of age the pups are moved with their mother to a kennel, where they have access to an enclosed run. From the run they see other puppies and mothers, but until the 7th week contact with human beings is limited to the few kennel workers who clean the runs and bring food.
First training
•At 8 weeks the pups have their first extensive contact with people. One day a week each puppy is given 30 minutes of informal training. He is walked on a leash and shown how to sit, heel and come when called. Most important, he is taught to fetch a rubber ball rolled on the ground. This exercise, Pfaffenberger discovered, is particularly significant because it reveals much about a puppy's willingness to please. After the fetch test the dog is introduced to a succession of new people, new noises and new animals (such as cats), which he may meet in later life. Throughout this phase of training two observers rate each pup on his responses, scoring him from zero to five according to how quickly he learns, how playful or shy he may be and how well he reacts to each new situation he meets.
•At the end of the 12th week the pup gets his final exam, scored by a board of eight experts, who decide whether or not to keep the dog for lead training. For the exam, the pup is taken out on a simulated city block, complete with sidewalks, curbs and fire hydrant. He is walked on a leash along the street, past strolling people, past the hydrant and a tricycle or some other object deliberately left in his way. A potentially trainable dog will show definite interest in each of these situations and will not be frightened or bewildered by any of them. The ultimate test the puppy faces is to be confronted by a hand cart being pushed directly toward him. The cart comes right up to the puppy, passes by him, and stops. Then the puppy-is led back to the cart. This, like the earlier fetch test, is particularly important because it is almost certain to bring out any basic shyness, instability or indecisiveness in the dog.
After two years of testing and relating the test scores to success in later adult training, Pfaffenberger found that he was able to predict with reasonable accuracy which 12-week-old puppies had guide-dog potential and which did not. But still there was trouble. A large number of the puppies either failed the tests or passed with such low scores that they could not be kept for training. This meant either that the tests were too hard or that the average puppy being born at the Guide Dog kennels was simply not good enough to be trained for lead work.
Pfaffenberger talked to Scott and his colleagues again, and together they decided that it was probably the dogs which were at fault.
Since these dogs were among the finest of their breed anywhere in the world, the only way to improve them was to develop better strains within the existing stock—that is, to breed dogs which produced high-scoring puppies, and then breed only those puppies which rated highest on the tests. Because the high scorers frequently were in the same family this meant inbreeding and line-breeding—where brother is mated to sister, father to daughter, mother to son, etc.—a practice on which no two dog breeders have ever agreed. The scientists believed such breeding would concentrate and intensify desirable genes to produce superdogs—not canine Jukeses.
They were right. Beginning with a magnificent German shepherd named Frankie of Ledge Acres, and working along breeding lines set up by Frankie's owner, William F. Johns, executive director of Guide Dogs, the organization began producing a higher and higher percentage of trainable dogs. Although Frankie died two years ago, through a complex and carefully controlled system of line-breeding (worked out by Johns), his genes still make up [8/16], or 50% (see chart), of the inheritance of the majority of German shepherd litters born at the Guide Dog kennels.
Beyond these discoveries in training and breeding, the program at Guide Dogs for the Blind revealed one more significant factor in dog development. That is, no matter how carefully a dog is bred or how high he scores in puppy tests, he may turn out to be worthless for adult training if he is not made part of a family environment in close contact with people by the time he is 12 to 13 weeks old.
It is hard to believe," says Pfaffenberger, "that the potential of a superior puppy can be so reduced, but there is no question that many fine dogs of all types have been ruined by remaining too long in the isolation of a kennel."
Today 90% of the puppies bred at Guide Dogs for the Blind complete adult training and become lead dogs. Compared with an original 20% to 25% success ratio, such results mark an achievement without precedent. "Our results indicate that we often produce much better puppies than we ever realize," says Pfaffenberger. "There is no reason why comparable testing and breeding programs could not be applied with equal success to the improvement of all dogs, no matter what the purpose for which they are intended."

Nick

Very interesting article! The end of that article basically sums up why I will never guarantee my pups to run and tree like so many other breeders do. I have absolutely no problem guaranteeing their health and would be more than happy to refund anyones money or replace a pup if it had some kind genetic disorder or anything like that. However I am a FIRM! believer that the more time you spend with your pup at those critical bonding ages as well as throughout there training can and does have a dramatic result on how they will turn out later in life. I especially believe that these leopards are even more sensitive and can be ruined far more easily than any of the other hound breeds as a whole. I truly believe that these leopards never reach their full potential unless they have a signifigant amount of one on one and very personal time as pups. I believe that later in life they can and will thrive just fine in the kennel but those beginning stages of development and socialization can make or break a dog. I have seen and attempted to train far too many young dogs ( including a few leopards) that where messed up at a young age and never recovered. I also have seen firsthand that not seperating your pups between 12 weeks and 6 months of age tends to cause them to develop more of a pack mentality and they never seem to develop that bond with a human unless they are seperated and forced to socialize and rely specifically on a human. The times I have raised a few young dogs in the same pen, I have always had problems. They sure got along with each other good but not one that I raised like that has ever turned out as good as a pup that was raised in its own pen or better yet in the house! I do not think that all pups need to be raised in the house but I do think it is easier to insure the proper amount of bonding and socialization will occur if you do. It can be done other ways I just personally find it is much easier to do that way. I also let all of my pups run loose constantly until they either start doing something very naughty (like constantly knocking over the trash), they start wandering too far out of the yard, or they start running and treeing to much game. The differance in pups I have raised this way versus the ones I have got as six months- a year old, or let grow up in a kennel until I decided they where old enough to start is absolutely astounding. So far the pups that we have produced that have turned out the best have all had a ton of one on one time and several where raised in the house. For example - Tyler's Dixie, and Gary Somer's Reaper where both raised in the house and went everywhere with the people who raised them. I am not sure if Todd Symanski's Memphis was raised in the house or not but I do know for sure that he was treated much like a pet than a tool in the shed. Todd has sent me several pictures of Memphis riding in the truck and the dog actually belongs to his daughter who I am sure spoiled him rotten! I would rather see a pup go to a teenage girl than to your average ol coonhunter who has owned and raised hundreds of dogs over the years. I usually can count on the girl spoiling a pup with love and affection. It goes a lot further than you think!

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson