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-- Losing Treeing Walker lines? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928399563)

Mr. Ratman, I believe, 3 or some years ago, a fine gentleman by the name of Mr. Tom Hopkins had the same recollection as you and the walker people should all be thankful that he also had the means to do something about it. If more people really wanted to bring back the solid traits we lack today, Mr. Hopkin's foresight has more than paved the way. History can repeat itself for hind sight is 20-20, we all know what lines Lipper crossed well on and what dominate traits he puts in the majority of his offspring. We can use the knowledge we learned the first time around to stack the odds in our favor with future similar crosses. I also believe the old blood we are talking about in this post is still here today with other solid lines as Coma and Clover. Maybe the question is "What do we have to do to open the eyes of the breeders?" I heard from others and think is very true,,, Everyone who makes their dog a Grand Night thinks he / she needs to be bred. I think this is the biggest problem we have with the Walker breed.

Their are still some really good lines out there, Sauk mentioned a few, but what I think breeders need to focus on a little more is a certain line like Coma or Clover Or make a new line out of an exceptional individual but the familys must be bred close to use as a tool to keep what ever traits they posses.
No line of hounds is perfect and sometimes you just need an outcross to move in a certain direction but if we lose these familys in the Walker breed, everything is going to be a big ocean of genes, and you will get a box of chocolates every time.
Example:Coma line::::: if i need to add a little size and houndness, hard hunting, big mouth.
Lipper:::: heavy color, looks,mouth,deep hunter
Finley River::: tri-color, looks, clear mouth, solid tree dogs,accurate.....etc...etc,,,,
What happens is when i breed Coma to something else it becomes half something else, then on and on till we have lost what we had. I know their are different views that's just mine.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

It's hard to sale an old blood dog these days to guys that don't understand what they have. They don't start fast enough, they don't tree hard enough, they don't go deep and alone, can't get them to bark and act like a F%#k Tard at a dead coon or a drag,,, lol. I gave 3 line bred Finley River pups to kids for prizes at our State Youth Hunt last year and not one of them still have them, and all them told me the things above. So here it is guys,, I line breed for TRAITS that suit me!!
1.) Intelligence: That Coon is dead, no need to bark.
2.) Tree Style : The old lines are all night kinda tree dogs, 60-70 BMP. Not 120 and the man shows up in 5 min.
3.) Hunt : If there left on the chain and not touched,THERE NOT GOING TO START. Most of my dogs are doing it alone 12-15 months.
4.) Range: There suppose to hunt like a Bird Dog, work the area not quit the country and get treed in the next county. Some tracks will take them out deep to get treed I understand, but not every time do they need to get deep.
5.) In years of Meat and Hide hunting the dog that wouldn't pack or keep up, was Culled. A dog can work a track and tree game with others and not be a Me-To SOB.
All I'm saying from my own mistake is I took a line of dogs that I'm the third generation to hunt/breed and I messed it up with one outcross, "ONE"!!! All because I look at the books and stud adds and thought it was what I wanted. Never again will make that mistake,, when I started those pups it was like they were speaking French, hunt traits was Spanish, and they had a BAD Gambling problem when it came to Treeing a Coon. So in short I'm back to Old Faithful and loving life. Line Breeding
Good luck to all and there breeding journey.
One more thing, when breeding make sure that your sure what your after, what you will stand for and what you will not, Black and White no Gray!!
And Cull those that don't make the cut. There will be plenty of pups to sale when you get rite.
Thanks ....

__________________
Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

We are Talking about Foundation Stock.

Nothing has been watered down., old stuff to old stuff, coon dog to coon dog, Strait off the farm right to your door step, no additives or preservatives. Forget names and titles, look for the traits you like and breed for traits alone. You need to know the traits of not just the dog your hunting but the dog your breeding to. You need to know the traits that are passed down from generation after generation. It's to hard to know what your going to get when your breeding Hienz 57...There are to many variables..who knows what your going to end up with...I Don't consider myself a professional breeder by no means, and I learn something new Quite often.. But, I do make a mean cup of soup on a consistent basis with a little pinch of this and a little pinch of that every once and a while..But the main ingredients always stay the same...God Bless and Good Hunting!

Hope I didn't confuse anybody talking about Soup! 😊lol

__________________
Jason Clark
Home of over 25 yrs of Line bred Brookshier hounds!
Home of Line bred Durbins Rambler Hounds and heavy line bred Rolling Hills hounds.

~Where a man's word still means something & a handshake is all We need!!!

~Grntch Chestnut Grove Ben Semen(Full Brother to Uplinger's Joe & Son of Logan's Wild Clover x Sandy Creek Daisy) Not For Sale - Frank Hummel/Jason Clark

~Grntch Hardwood Whiner/Rolling Hills Hunter Semen(Son of Durbin's Rambler x Rolling Hills Jane) Not For Sale




~Dual ch.Brookshiers Finley River Driver(2007 Walker days 1st place & high scoring walker male sat) (Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~3 Wins to Grand, Nitch Clark's Mr.Wilson HTX(Driver x Cane River Cry Babe) Qualified 2014, 2016 UKC World Hunt
~Brookshier's Finley River Salty (Grntch. Brookshier's Finley River Sting x Cane River Trudy,Trudy is a Littermate to Wilson and Sassy)
~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper (Driver x Kraviks Babe) Uncle niece cross
~Brookshier's Finley River Momba (Driver X Kraviks Babe) Uncle Niece Cross
~Nitch Cane River Sassy (Driver x Cane River Cry Babe)Qualified 2012 UKC World Hunt
~Clark's Finley River Spot(Finley River Zig x Ramblin Jane) Winer and Ramblin Jane are Brother&Sister
~Clark's Rolling Hills Skinner (Grntch Hardwood Winer x Clark's Finley River Spot)
~Nitch Brookshier's Crosscountry Gert. (Uncle Lee x Crosscountry music) Daughter of Lone Pine Dewey
~Nitch Brookshier's Finley River Viper(Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~Brookshier's Fullblown Rage (Uncle Lee x Finley River Molly ) Daughter of F.R. Lonnie x Fulkerson's F.R. Suzy
~Clark's Little River (Grntch Shoemakers Gator x Grntch Shoemakers Lou
~Brookshier's Otter Creek Dan (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Little Lady (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Penns. Scooby (Denny Burn's Willie x Backwater Kate ,Uncle Lee's mother)

Trinket Clark

X2,,, well said.

__________________
Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

Trinket Clark, artkiger, AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YA'LL SAID!!! Sauk Talking I don't Agree with what your saying about Tom Hopkins, He decided to make an OUTCROSS on Sackett Jr instead of line breeding on the Traits of Lipper AND THE HOUSE LINE!!! To use the SOUP Recipe He added when not needed!!! (MY OPINION)
NO DIRESPECT TO MR. HOPKINS HE BRED FOR WHAT HE WAS LOOKING FOR!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by abshire
Trinket Clark, artkiger, AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YA'LL SAID!!! Sauk Talking I don't Agree with what your saying about Tom Hopkins, He decided to make an OUTCROSS on Sackett Jr instead of line breeding on the Traits of Lipper!!! To use the SOUP Recipe He added when not needed!!!

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__________________
Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

Good post wish that I was back in time now wanting the old blood pacman, Diamond Jim, Hillbilly Mac, those were by far my favorites. Got to give congrays to Mike Shannon it appears he has done what it takes to keep the Mac blood

quote:

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Originally posted by MR.RATMAN
Good post wish that I was back in time now wanting the old blood pacman, Diamond Jim, Hillbilly Mac, those were by far my favorites. Got to give congrays to Mike Shannon it appears he has done what it takes to keep the Mac blood

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__________________
Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by MR.RATMAN
Good post wish that I was back in time now wanting the old blood pacman, Diamond Jim, Hillbilly Mac, those were by far my favorites. Got to give congrays to Mike Shannon it appears he has done what it takes to keep the Mac blood

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__________________
740-255-3087
william(wildbill)saylor
wildbills101@hotmail
wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

abshire

I agree with what you said with using the lipper semen on War Creek Ann, She has a good shot of Lipper through Clint but also has Sackett Jr. showing up twice. Many consider Sackett Jr. to be Yadkin River blood. So,, there really is only 2 lines here used and they did cross well together, Lipper and Yadkin River. In my opinion, with the dogs from this cross you do have the old blood up close and know where you are starting from. It's not pure Lipper or pure House's, or pure Yadkin River but far from Heinz 57.

I sold three litters of pups last Summer, they weren't all Grand nor were they the flavor of the month new blood. You can still find good bred dogs out there.

__________________
Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

My type of soup

Crossing Finley River Sniper on the female below.

...................Collom's Diamond Blitz
........ ......Cooks speed
.......Grntch Brookshiers Uncle Lee(Fastest drifting style track dog i ever Hunted)
.............. Backwater Kate (coon dog & puppy trainer deluxe)
..Dual ch. Brookshiers Finley River Driver (2007 -1st place&high scoring walker Male sat at walker days ).
................Bark Bustin Bush (grandson Finley river Dan & Monroe's Finley River Joe)
....... Wldchgrntch Finley River Sally (2 time ACHA World Champion Female)
............... Backwater Kate (coon dog & puppy trainer deluxe)

~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper

..................................GRNITECH. Logan's Wild Clover(Grandson F.R. Dan)
........................GRNITECH. Wessel's Wild Casey
..................................GRNITECH. Logan's Wild Jeanie(River Bend Flag)
............’PR” Rockdale Lone Pine Billy(Owned by Roger Jacobson)
..................................GRNITECH. Collins Hillbilly Mac Jr.(son of Hillbilly Mac)
........................NITECH. Cavitt’s Hillbilly Misty
..................................Collins’ Little Roxie(Daughter of Minklers Kansas Rock)
...”PR” Kravik’s Babe
..................................Cook’s Speed
........................GRNITECH. Brookshiers Uncle Lee
................................…Brookshier's Backwater Kate
............”PR” Brookshiers Jesse (Drivers Littermate Sister)
..................................NITECH. CH Bark Busting Bush(Grandson of F.R.Dan & Monroe's F.R. Joe)
........................WldchGrntch. Brookshiers Finley River Sally (2 time ACHA World Champion Female)
................................. Brookshiers Backwater Kate

This is what I like, maybe not everyone's cup of tea.. Just thought I would share it.
Female below:
http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/J...25d10c.jpg.html
http://s1357.photobucket.com/user/J...f15768.jpg.html
Tried to get it all in there.

__________________
Jason Clark
Home of over 25 yrs of Line bred Brookshier hounds!
Home of Line bred Durbins Rambler Hounds and heavy line bred Rolling Hills hounds.

~Where a man's word still means something & a handshake is all We need!!!

~Grntch Chestnut Grove Ben Semen(Full Brother to Uplinger's Joe & Son of Logan's Wild Clover x Sandy Creek Daisy) Not For Sale - Frank Hummel/Jason Clark

~Grntch Hardwood Whiner/Rolling Hills Hunter Semen(Son of Durbin's Rambler x Rolling Hills Jane) Not For Sale




~Dual ch.Brookshiers Finley River Driver(2007 Walker days 1st place & high scoring walker male sat) (Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~3 Wins to Grand, Nitch Clark's Mr.Wilson HTX(Driver x Cane River Cry Babe) Qualified 2014, 2016 UKC World Hunt
~Brookshier's Finley River Salty (Grntch. Brookshier's Finley River Sting x Cane River Trudy,Trudy is a Littermate to Wilson and Sassy)
~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper (Driver x Kraviks Babe) Uncle niece cross
~Brookshier's Finley River Momba (Driver X Kraviks Babe) Uncle Niece Cross
~Nitch Cane River Sassy (Driver x Cane River Cry Babe)Qualified 2012 UKC World Hunt
~Clark's Finley River Spot(Finley River Zig x Ramblin Jane) Winer and Ramblin Jane are Brother&Sister
~Clark's Rolling Hills Skinner (Grntch Hardwood Winer x Clark's Finley River Spot)
~Nitch Brookshier's Crosscountry Gert. (Uncle Lee x Crosscountry music) Daughter of Lone Pine Dewey
~Nitch Brookshier's Finley River Viper(Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~Brookshier's Fullblown Rage (Uncle Lee x Finley River Molly ) Daughter of F.R. Lonnie x Fulkerson's F.R. Suzy
~Clark's Little River (Grntch Shoemakers Gator x Grntch Shoemakers Lou
~Brookshier's Otter Creek Dan (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Little Lady (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Penns. Scooby (Denny Burn's Willie x Backwater Kate ,Uncle Lee's mother)

Dennis you are right, there are guy's out there busting their butt to keep a line going, myself included.What I wanted out of this post is for some of them to be recognized and their dogs.
And to challenge new breeders to stay with a line and learn how to breed what you hunt.
I believe that when you cross two heavy linebred strains together interesting things can happen. But you have to have those 2 strains! New one's are more than welcome to come along also, let's see what some guy's can bring to the table.
My focus has been with crossing Coma lines x Lipper x House lines. Love talking hounds with you guys and seeing whats out there.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Agreed!!! It's been nice reading info from and posting info to like minded guys with the same goals. Though our blood lines of choice may be different or similar in certan degrees we all seem to be on the same journey. Also it's been very refreshing that it hasn't turned into a B!+€% session or trash talking any of the lines discussed so far. Thanks guys and really enjoying this thread.

__________________
Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

im gonna put my two cents in on this even though i have no idea what it takes to be a great breeder back when all the old lines were developed they all came from one start now if you take 100 dogs and try to breed each one for a certain trait pretty soon you will have one of every line in that mix if keep doing that you will get what we have today so just maybe instead of trying to hold on to the old lines maybe we should try to start new ones that are better i think for the most part its making things worse buy trying to breed for old blood because you will have what was the past thats why its called the past jmo so dont beat me up to bad

Bringing back some old memory's.

X2 Here Boys..This is about as close as I get to listening to guys talk dogs and breeding anymore. What I enjoyed so much as a youngster growing up was listening to all the older guys talking about there dogs, how they was bred and the different hunting styles. The crosses they already made and the crosses they was planning on making. Etc, etc. I was like a kid in a candy store.To me that was just as enjoyable as the hunt. Maybe more so. I miss those days. Nowadays it seems like everybody nows everything and can't wait to criticize someone else's efforts. Nobody wants to just sit and listen anymore and maybe give some Constructive Criticism, There is a difference. I'm all ears and eager to be a part of this breeding discussion.

__________________
Jason Clark
Home of over 25 yrs of Line bred Brookshier hounds!
Home of Line bred Durbins Rambler Hounds and heavy line bred Rolling Hills hounds.

~Where a man's word still means something & a handshake is all We need!!!

~Grntch Chestnut Grove Ben Semen(Full Brother to Uplinger's Joe & Son of Logan's Wild Clover x Sandy Creek Daisy) Not For Sale - Frank Hummel/Jason Clark

~Grntch Hardwood Whiner/Rolling Hills Hunter Semen(Son of Durbin's Rambler x Rolling Hills Jane) Not For Sale




~Dual ch.Brookshiers Finley River Driver(2007 Walker days 1st place & high scoring walker male sat) (Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~3 Wins to Grand, Nitch Clark's Mr.Wilson HTX(Driver x Cane River Cry Babe) Qualified 2014, 2016 UKC World Hunt
~Brookshier's Finley River Salty (Grntch. Brookshier's Finley River Sting x Cane River Trudy,Trudy is a Littermate to Wilson and Sassy)
~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper (Driver x Kraviks Babe) Uncle niece cross
~Brookshier's Finley River Momba (Driver X Kraviks Babe) Uncle Niece Cross
~Nitch Cane River Sassy (Driver x Cane River Cry Babe)Qualified 2012 UKC World Hunt
~Clark's Finley River Spot(Finley River Zig x Ramblin Jane) Winer and Ramblin Jane are Brother&Sister
~Clark's Rolling Hills Skinner (Grntch Hardwood Winer x Clark's Finley River Spot)
~Nitch Brookshier's Crosscountry Gert. (Uncle Lee x Crosscountry music) Daughter of Lone Pine Dewey
~Nitch Brookshier's Finley River Viper(Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~Brookshier's Fullblown Rage (Uncle Lee x Finley River Molly ) Daughter of F.R. Lonnie x Fulkerson's F.R. Suzy
~Clark's Little River (Grntch Shoemakers Gator x Grntch Shoemakers Lou
~Brookshier's Otter Creek Dan (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Little Lady (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Penns. Scooby (Denny Burn's Willie x Backwater Kate ,Uncle Lee's mother)

I have an old country dog that I really like, he is not perfect, but he has the traits I like.
He comes from a long line of country dogs, and I have tried to keep it that way. Herein lies the problem, it is hard to find a female that don't have a pedigree full of the latest and greatest. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that mine is better or that those dogs are no good. All I am saying is that from a breeding standpoint, that is not where I want to go.
I finally found a first cousin female and made a cross. I kept one female pup, and wish I had kept more. She is showing a mixed bag of traits, most of which I like. And is making a pretty good dog in her own rite.
My male was one of two pups one being a female, and I think she is dead. So now I have something I really like and only have a father and daughter to keep it going. I have found a few dogs with common ancestors as mine, but nothing I like.

I have breed a few females for other folks, and they seem to be happy with the results, so this does give me a few half brothers to work with. But this brings in bloodlines that I don't want.
Any suggestions?

quote:

---

Originally posted by ssgied
I have an old country dog that I really like, he is not perfect, but he has the traits I like.
He comes from a long line of country dogs, and I have tried to keep it that way. Herein lies the problem, it is hard to find a female that don't have a pedigree full of the latest and greatest. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that mine is better or that those dogs are no good. All I am saying is that from a breeding standpoint, that is not where I want to go.
I finally found a first cousin female and made a cross. I kept one female pup, and wish I had kept more. She is showing a mixed bag of traits, most of which I like. And is making a pretty good dog in her own rite.
My male was one of two pups one being a female, and I think she is dead. So now I have something I really like and only have a father and daughter to keep it going. I have found a few dogs with common ancestors as mine, but nothing I like.

I have breed a few females for other folks, and they seem to be happy with the results, so this does give me a few half brothers to work with. But this brings in bloodlines that I don't want.
Any suggestions?

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__________________
740-255-3087
william(wildbill)saylor
wildbills101@hotmail
wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

ssgied

That sometimes is the hard part,, when you don't have those same family dogs to cross back on and even worse is when there half the same family and half what you don't want. Lol,, My advise would be go talk and hunting with guys that have line bred dogs and see if they have the traits your looking for. Hunt a lot of different dogs from that family, Father,mother, sister, cousin,grand parents, uncles and see what traits are passing from what dog and how those guys made there crosses and why. Then cross on your dog and line breed from there. Just know that the cross may not work, then start the process over. JMO there's no short cuts, you have to do your home work and put the miles in the woods to know if you made the correct choice.
Hope this helps,,,

Anyone else have thoughts??

__________________
Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

Wildbill

I didn't read his last post close enough, didn't realize he had a Father and Daughter on the place.

__________________
Hope your dogs hunt clean and your guns shoot true!!!!

ssiged, one of the reasons I started this post was to put like minded people together, allot of these guys have old blood and i am sure are breeding for traits you like, an outcross of a line you like that are really close in traits would help you tremendously. Give you multiple options.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Re: Wildbill

quote:

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Originally posted by artkiger
I didn't read his last post close enough, didn't realize he had a Father and Daughter on the place.

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__________________
740-255-3087
william(wildbill)saylor
wildbills101@hotmail
wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

im looking for some linebred house close to house lawyer as can get...

have lot yotes around,, need that willing to go dance with them attitude back in the dogs ,got everything else i need,,,lol

__________________
740-255-3087
william(wildbill)saylor
wildbills101@hotmail
wildbills101@yahoo
http://wildbills101.homestead.com/wildbills101.html

Not sure how you could call Sackett Jr a yadkin river bred dog. I would think he would have been an outcross breeding.

I like breeding uncle/niece, aunt/nephew and first cousins. My Candy female is off of a uncle/niece cross and I bred her back to her uncle.

If that cross clicks like it should I plan on breeding them back to a cousin, then more than likely I will need a outcross before breeding back tight again.

__________________
Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892