UKC Forums - While we’re talking about scores..

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show all 35 posts from this thread on one page

UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- While we’re talking about scores.. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928554691)

Posted by Dave Richards on 02-27-2024 09:09 PM:

Scores

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
Agreed

Dave what other major UKC hunts need changed other than the Winter Classic? And I got some news for ya, a dog can do more than just win their cast. I absolutely hate that saying, “all a dog can do is win its cast”. That’s like saying, well my dog treed a coon last night but it took him two hours to do it. That’s all he can do.

Surely you do not believe that saying! You tell me that a cast hunting in thin coons and the winner scoring on 1 coons is inferior to a dog hunting in thick coons scoring on more than 1 coons. I stand by my comment that all any dog can do is beat the other dogs in their cast. It's absurd to just compare scores seeing how all casts are NOT hunting together or on the same hunting grounds. Hunting off feeders and scoring a big score proves nothing, as a started dog can do that. Hunts like the Winter Classic should at least be based on the Grand American format top 4 double cast winners hunting to determine the Winner. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Dave Richards on 02-27-2024 11:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
Agreed

Dave what other major UKC hunts need changed other than the Winter Classic? And I got some news for ya, a dog can do more than just win their cast. I absolutely hate that saying, “all a dog can do is win its cast”. That’s like saying, well my dog treed a coon last night but it took him two hours to do it. That’s all he can do.

You logic is flawed to say the least. Show me any dog that can do more than win their cast. Treeing 1 coons or 10 in 2 hours depends just as much on the coons population as the dogs ability. If a dog wins it's cast with 1 coons it still beats the other dogs in it's cast. NO DOG can do any better than that. Comparing cast winners is WAY better than comparing high scores as score depends on coons population where the cast hunts. Compare Apple's to Apple's not Apple's to Oranges. How many times have you seen the same dogs score be high or low on different nights in the same hunt due to different hunting ground? Basing a winner on high score in one cast is insane. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by berger on 02-28-2024 01:34 PM:

Re: While we’re talking about scores..

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
Personally, I’ve always liked the elimination format better than high scores.. for many reasons. But after the latest controversy, I decided to take 5 minutes and look into recent years at our beloved Autumn Oaks..

2023 Grand 16 CW scores
• 300+, 25+, 350+, 225+
Final cast winner 175+

2022 Grand 16 CW scores
•375+, 200+, 150+, 325+
Final Cast winner 225+

2021 Grand 16 CW scores
• dead, 200+, dead, 225+
Final cast winner 75+

This is far back as I could find scores posted along with results. The point - every Friday night it’s a shootout with, most often, scores coming in over 1,000+ and 700 to 800+ like nobody’s business..

Yet, come Saturday night it dries up and 1 or 2 coons is all that hits the card. Do the stars just align that Friday night is way better hunting every year? Just coincidence?

The Grand 16 is the cream of the crop.. but scores seem to plummet after the race to get in.

I am guessing this is no doubt related to the high score from winter classic. This will be a long read and informative.
Back in the 90"s a freind and I decided to go to the PKC nationals open event hunt add purse hunt. So we loaded up and headed out 6 hour drive. I got the privlege of drawing a hot dog winning everything at the time. 1st drop we cut dogs in a spot that had a creek but very few trees a bush here and there after 57minutes of the hunt gone we finally had scored are first tree or hole in this circumstance, all dogs were there and we called timeout. We get back to the truck and guide the handler handling the big name dogs ask the guide if he had some place to cut us loose with trees on it as we weren't just there to win our cast but we were trying to score enough points to get in the top 4, there were over 100 dogs being hunted so we needed some coons treed. Next spot guide said if we tree quickly to recut but if it takes sometime call time out if you can and we will go somewhere else. wasn't long we were treed walked in had a split tree about 4 feet apart, judge looks up trees were intertwined judge said we were scoring it as 1 tree. found coon in both trees scored as 1 and recut. Dogs got in restruck got in deep after a bit we were treed again. Had a split tree again coon scored in both trees called time out. went back guide took us to another spot cut em loose wasn't to long mine struck behind us to the left and slammed treed. Treed in the road ditch in a bush by the creek with a coon put me leading the cast but I was sure it wasn't enough to get in the final 4 needed another coon 9 minutes left. recut across the road few hundred yards restruck wasn't long treed again. hunt runs out walking to tree we start shining the handler with the that nationally recognized hound seen and eye we never could get him to look again or find the coon. We get back to the truck the guide and an older gentleman asked if it was plussed up we said no. they said the coon looked at them showed us where they saw him look and it was about in the same area as the handler had seen a eye. I needed that coon as I was 75 points shy of making the final 4. This cast taught me something about guiding.
quite a few years later I went to a hunt and had my own guide set up we hit a couple spots but didn't have much to show for it. the guide took us to a spot we cut dogs loose and they run all over in there and finally treed 1 coon. walking to tree we seen quite a few coons hunt was over after scoring tree and seen even more going back to truck. Guide was defiantly disappointed we didn't have much to show for it. We should have scored a ton of points.
A few years back I had the opportunity to guide for the UKC world zones. On Friday night we scored some coons had a lot of split trees walking back forth through hills and ditches scoring coon, circles and slicks we had a cast winner with a few hundred points. On Saturday night when my cast was drawn talking to the handlers no one had a cast win so I knew they needed a bigger score to get in. So instead of driving 25 to 30 miles to guide I decided to drive 60+ to get them in a big flat bottom so we could here them and get as many coon scored as possible. towards the end we had 3 split trees 1st dog treed way through the country walking towards that dog the hunt would be over. On are way another dog got treed behind us and wasn't long the last dog was split treed behind us also. Now even if all dogs had a coon no one thought it would give them a high enough score to get in. We were able to call time out between trees and after scoring the last tree we had 6 minutes left. We called timeout and moved, now we could have recut and probably treed another coon but could they have done it quick enough. the best opportunity to score was to call timeout and move. we drove out and back down into this bottom we were less then a 1/8 mile from where the last tree was made drove back to a grove of oak trees and cut dogs. Dogs struck almost immediately an less then 3 minutes all dogs were treed and we had a split tree. 1st tree couldn't find coon 2 trees together with a nest, 2nd tree had a coon and a new cast leader and winner. That last coon gave that dog enough points to advance on in the world hunt.
As a guide your job isn't to see if them dogs in the hunt are coon dogs. Your job is to give them the best chance of moving on in the hunt. Give them the best opportunity that presents it self to rack up points and move on. Cudos to the guide at winter classic even though he had a dog with over 1100 points he put them in new territory to rack up that score. That is the job of a guide and should always be the mind set of a guide give the dogs in the cast the best opportunity possible. Shame on you if you don't.

__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels

319-201-8445

Posted by T Felderman on 02-28-2024 02:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
You logic is flawed to say the least. Show me any dog that can do more than win their cast. Treeing 1 coons or 10 in 2 hours depends just as much on the coons population as the dogs ability. If a dog wins it's cast with 1 coons it still beats the other dogs in its cast. NO DOG can do any better than that. Comparing cast winners is WAY better than comparing high scores as score depends on coons population where the cast hunts. Compare Apple's to Apple's not Apple's to Oranges. How many times have you seen the same dogs score be high or low on different nights in the same hunt due to different hunting ground? Basing a winner on high score in one cast is insane. Dave

So you have never won your cast and were disappointed the way the dog looked or never been disappointed it didn’t put more coons on the scorecard in good hunting? As long as you got the cast win you were satisfied. I mean that’s all the dog could do right? Win its cast. I guess you are an easy man to please.

Posted by Dave Richards on 02-28-2024 03:09 PM:

Scores

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
So you have never won your cast and were disappointed the way the dog looked or never been disappointed it didn’t put more coons on the scorecard in good hunting? As long as you got the cast win you were satisfied. I mean that’s all the dog could do right? Win its cast. I guess you are an easy man to please.

Lol. What kind of logic are you trying to make? We all have been disappointed in Winning a cast where the dog looked like crap, but won. How is this even related to saying that a dog can only beat the dogs in their cast. Satisfaction in your dogs performance is another thing. Dogs certainly have good and bad nights, but ultimately NO DOG can ever beat dogs in other casts only their own cast. Trying to compare scores in different casts is absurd due to hunting ground and coons population where the different casts hunt. Having a guide that has access to honey holes is definitely a advantage. NO DOG can tree coons if they are not there. I am not a easy man to please, it takes a real coon dog to suit me. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Clif Owen on 03-01-2024 12:48 AM:

Mr. Dave,
Something you kind of seem to have missed was the dog won his cast both nights. Not a 1 night super high score. With that many dogs entered; there has to be some way to cut the field to make it possible to get it done. Not just convenient..I'm talking about it being POSSIBLE.
So, if they were cut down to say the field down to say..4 dogs; that one would definitely still be in the mix. Probably would have won it because he had the momentum going. Since I know one guy who was there but wasn't interviewed because he wasn't involved as a cast member , guide or judge..and he swore it was legit; I tend to believe it .
I recall a 4 dog cast that scored 4 or 5 coons in the first 45 minutes...with all 4 dogs on each tree....it makes a guy realize things are possible. The funny thing about that one was that the guide had a watermelon patch he was going to use later. They all wanted to go there after they scored what they had and they ran the remaining 2 hours and 15 minutes (it was a 3 hour hunt) and never looked up another tree.

True, all a dog can do is win his cast but there has to be some way of seperation.

Posted by nickhagerman on 03-01-2024 04:32 AM:

The reason I see as scores being lower is the style dogs we hunt today there's not nearly as much jamming coon going on as I like to see in a cast or expect. There is multiple things to get a good score on the board but having dogs pass up alot of coon just to go separate ways is not going to do it. You need 1 that is looking to be hooked right now with a coon not looking to fly in .6 and tree alone. The dogs I used to hunt were like that now I got 2 that tree me way more coon at a lot faster and fun pace super action packed can tree 1 10 ft or a mile but looking to be be treed with a coon now. The other night was a perfect example of how these scenarios play out. Treed a coon 150 yards in just under 3 minutes grabbed her off went bout 20 yards jammed treed in couple seconds with another recut again went bout 500 treed with another in around 5 minutes (yes I carry a stop watch every time I cut 1 loose) yes these scores are possible I've never done it scored 1475 1 time but 1200 and around there numerous times and few of those times had a couple in circle and few still believe the dog should have scored a few more coon on that given night. If you don't believe these big scores are possible you are turning a blind eye to what some dogs not all are capable and talented enough to do on a given night in the right situations

__________________
Hagerman's Eagle Lake kennel's

GrNitech Eagle Lake Mojane
2022 Silver lake walker sec. CW
2022 walker days CW
2022 Wyatt rqe 1st place
2023 lieters ford rqe 2nd place
2023 TOC top 96
Qualified for TOC 2023, 2024
Qualified ukc world 2022,2023

GrNitech Eagle Lake smiling Bob
Qualified for TOC 2024, 2025
Qualified ukc world 2024
Nitech at 13 months
GrNitech at 19 months
2024 walker days pup hunt 6th place
2024 walker days Friday night CW
2024 MI madness Cw Thursday
2024 world zone 1 Friday night Cw
Nick Hagerman (260)237-0392

Posted by Dave Richards on 03-01-2024 11:25 PM:

Scores

Yes, I am aware that the dog won 2 casts, so did some other dogs. Being a "Winner" solely on the basis of high score is a joke in my opinion. Getting a honey hole draw and hunting against 1 to 3 other dogs in that cast only proves it beat those 1 to 3 dogs. Casts hunting in thinner coons and scoring fewer points may have the best dog in the hunt. Score alone can never determine the Winner of a big hunt as there are too many other factors involved, such as hunting ground, coons population and dogs splitting all night. Leave the hunt format as it is now and you will never have a winner. Just do not pizz on my leg and tell me it's raining. I can assure anyone that if this hunt had a big cash prize for the Winner that the hunt format would definitely change. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by berger on 03-02-2024 03:12 PM:

Re: Scores

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Yes, I am aware that the dog won 2 casts, so did some other dogs. Being a "Winner" solely on the basis of high score is a joke in my opinion. Getting a honey hole draw and hunting against 1 to 3 other dogs in that cast only proves it beat those 1 to 3 dogs. Casts hunting in thinner coons and scoring fewer points may have the best dog in the hunt. Score alone can never determine the Winner of a big hunt as there are too many other factors involved, such as hunting ground, coons population and dogs splitting all night. Leave the hunt format as it is now and you will never have a winner. Just do not pizz on my leg and tell me it's raining. I can assure anyone that if this hunt had a big cash prize for the Winner that the hunt format would definitely change. Dave

I have never seen anyone on this message board as much anti hunts as Dave Richards. Go back over several years and read his comments. He tries to keep himself sounding like a competition hunter being as he tries to stay politically correct in his comments. But you read what he posts and you can tell he is anti competition hunting. Just the facts!!

__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels

319-201-8445

Posted by Dave Richards on 03-02-2024 04:21 PM:

Re: Re: Scores

quote:
Originally posted by berger
I have never seen anyone on this message board as much anti hunts as Dave Richards. Go back over several years and read his comments. He tries to keep himself sounding like a competition hunter being as he tries to stay politically correct in his comments. But you read what he posts and you can tell he is anti competition hunting. Just the facts!!

Lol. You are 100 percent wrong, I am totally for the competition hunts, it's just that I want to see as much equality in all of the hunts as possible. My stance is bound to upset those stuck on outdated hunt formats. The true nature of a competition means that ALL of those competing have a equal playing field. How can any one argue that this is anti competition or anti hunts as you suggest. Giving everyone that attends a competition hunt a fair chance at winning the hunt should be a desirable outcome. Stacking the deck for a select few hunting honey holes and basing the hunt on high score will never equate fair competition. For the record my competition hunting days are over due to health and age, but I still believe in a fair playing field for everyone that hunts in the competition hunting arena. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:39 PM.

Pages (2): « 1 [2]
Show all 35 posts from this thread on one page