UKC Forums - national days

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-24-2013 03:53 PM:

how

Richard, the guys that only have a cast win from Friday HAVE to win Saturday just to have a chance to tie you ,you already have two wins .How is your chances to win Saturday any different than theirs. You say you will have to decide if you want to take the chance of taking minus. the guys with only one win have no other way to catch up with you but to hunt. If we only count the cast wins and only use minus for tie breakers it allows people to make their own choice . set back and watch someone else come back with 3 wins or take your chances . 3 wins and your in. Loose your cast for any reason and the points are only used to break a tie . I like it.
Oh ,by the way I meant It is simple to understand not to do.

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Posted by Preston Owens on 03-24-2013 04:10 PM:

Re: Re: 3 nights

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
What if I win my cast Thursday night and Friday night and a couple of people don't hunt on Thursday night but win their cast on Friday night? Now then, I have to make a decision. What if I hunt on Sat night and tree a possum or my dog gets out of pocket and scratched on the hour or I draw a mean dog that eats mine up and I have to withdraw? I am now going to have 400- deducted from my Thursday and Friday night scores. The dogs that won their cast on Friday night only have to win on Saturday night now. What is the big "change" that was made? How was the Overall Champion figured prior to this "change"? Why was a "change" made?

I agree Richard, What happened to warrent this "change" it must've happened last year when me and Jarrod were headed home... Someone must know what brought this on... I want to know....

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Posted by Preston Owens on 03-24-2013 05:16 PM:

hmm

someone must know what happened last year to warrant this change.... Come on guys dont just have this huge conversation and not disclose all info really needed to understand the logic behind this rule change....

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Posted by Preston Owens on 03-24-2013 05:49 PM:

HMM

Im gonna have to call the King I guess....

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Posted by Nate Ratcliff on 03-24-2013 05:53 PM:

It was brought up and voted on who brought it up unknown to me .I wasn't at meeting.If someone who was there wants to clarify who or why.I don't see how it passed

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-24-2013 06:01 PM:

I think

I thought the opposite sex winner last year had less cast wins than some other dogs . I'm not saying anything against any of the dogs involved. but I believe that was the case . So because of all of that discussion the board figured it needed to clarify how the winners are picked. I agree it does need set in writing so all can see. I think we had a very slight problem in wording before as to lead to some confusion. With the topic coming up it is very important to get it correct and that is what is leading to all the chat. The southern meeting was where the rules were covered and that is when the -400 for not hunting was also clarified to include any night you don't hunt regardless of weather you are there or not. Personally I believe there will always be a problem for giving a dog extra minus points that they have not earned during a hunt. It's all good discussion.

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-24-2013 09:34 PM:

Re: I think

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I thought the opposite sex winner last year had less cast wins than some other dogs . I'm not saying anything against any of the dogs involved. but I believe that was the case . .

I can see now why it became an issue, I would think all would agree that cast wins should be the 1st thing to look at in deciding an overall winner. A high score most times indicates a better guide or hunting spot.. A cast win is all anyone can do to compete against the other dogs hunting not on their cast.. It is a known fact that Guides play a major role in the outcome of ALL hunts. I believe there is already a rule that says the Club will appoint guides and that is the method to curb hiring a guide to help a person run up a big score each night in lew of others that do not have that same chance.. Am I correct?

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-24-2013 09:58 PM:

The way the opp sex winner was determined last year at national days was strictly by the rules that were in place. The two females who had two cast wins with plus points both got scratched on saturday night which gave them 400-....the two cast wins that each of them had, combined did not add up to 400 plus and by the rules....the 400- from their scratches on saturday night when subtracted from their total plus points from thursday and friday left both dogs with a final score which was still minus points....and the rule says dog must have a total final score of plus points to win and get a trophy.
Believe me, that rule about subtracting the minus points from your non cast wins from your cast wins got me earlier last year at southern days.
Breanna had 2 cast wins with 225+ on both thursday and friday....and then the dogs treed 2 dens and got run off a tree and all the way back to us by coyotes on saturday night which gave me minus. Mike Jarbo had two cast wins with two hundred and something combined score but when saturday nights minus was subtracted from Breanna's total from the first two cast wins...it put her below Mikes dog and he got overall champion and Bree got opp sex champion.
I studied those rules very good after southern days....and they were followed as written....and they were also followed as written at National days last july.
Both wins were legit and according to the rules.

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Posted by Preston Owens on 03-24-2013 10:17 PM:

Question for you because I dont know

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
The way the opp sex winner was determined last year at national days was strictly by the rules that were in place. The two females who had two cast wins with plus points both got scratched on saturday night which gave them 400-....the two cast wins that each of them had, combined did not add up to 400 plus and by the rules....the 400- from their scratches on saturday night when subtracted from their total plus points from thursday and friday left both dogs with a final score which was still minus points....and the rule says dog must have a total final score of plus points to win and get a trophy.

So how did they determine the opp sex winner if they didnt have a total score of Plus points then after they got scatched? What was the proper way to determine the opp sex winner in that scenerio?

How do they now determine the winner if you only win 2 casts and eat 400- and your left with a score of Minus points??

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-24-2013 10:24 PM:

Re: Question for you because I dont know

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
So how did they determine the opp sex winner if they didnt have a total score of Plus points then after they got scatched? What was the proper way to determine the opp sex winner in that scenerio?

How do they now determine the winner if you only win 2 casts and eat 400- and your left with a score of Minus points??

If there are no other double cast winners with + points....then it goes to the highest single cast winner with + points....and that is what happened.

Posted by cubruncoon on 03-24-2013 10:28 PM:

It should be least minus if I'm correct.

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Posted by Bobby Stevens on 03-24-2013 10:48 PM:

i think it was a set up last yr and a conspiracy for both double cw females get scratched just so shane could win lol

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-24-2013 10:51 PM:

the rules

I don't think the rules were broken at all but I do not believe that the intent of the rules were ever to have a 2 cast win dog get beat out by a 1 cast win dog. This is why we need to really work these rules out and keep them simple enough and fair enough that that kind of thing doesn't get repeated.
just a question, who thinks that a dog that wins it's cast all three nights but that gets back late and misses the dead line on Saturday should receive -400 points. How do we do that now. do they get -400 or just a no cast win 0. for the late card. How would that effect the overall winner if this was the only dog that could have had 3 wins. Will this knock that dog completely out of the 2 night winners contention.
Once again awarding points either plus or minus that are not earned during the hunt seems like punishment instead of fairness. JMO

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-24-2013 11:03 PM:

Re: the rules

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I don't think the rules were broken at all but I do not believe that the intent of the rules were ever to have a 2 cast win dog get beat out by a 1 cast win dog. This is why we need to really work these rules out and keep them simple enough and fair enough that that kind of thing doesn't get repeated.
just a question, who thinks that a dog that wins it's cast all three nights but that gets back late and misses the dead line on Saturday should receive -400 points. How do we do that now. do they get -400 or just a no cast win 0. for the late card. How would that effect the overall winner if this was the only dog that could have had 3 wins. Will this knock that dog completely out of the 2 night winners contention.
Once again awarding points either plus or minus that are not earned during the hunt seems like punishment instead of fairness. JMO

Kelly, in ukc....any dog that doesn't make it back before the deadline is scratched. Are you saying that even if a dog gets scratched...because it won its cast....it should still count as a win towards overall champion?
If you can't win under ukc rules....you should not win overall champion.
If anything.....we need to stop using the addition of plus points or subtraction of minus points from nights that you didn't win a cast. The only time they should matter is in the event of a tie and then go to each dogs score on the night they didnt win their cast and see who had either most plus or least minus to break the tie.
In the ukc world hunt zones which are two nights they do not subtract your minus from one night from you plus the next night....they go by highest double cw and then highest single cw and only cast win scores are used.

Posted by Bobby Stevens on 03-24-2013 11:04 PM:

or if you have 2 cw's with 25+ each night then tree a possum ? 400- then you would do the same as last yr go to the dog with the highest single plus point cast win

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-24-2013 11:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bobby Stevens
or if you have 2 cw's with 25+ each night then tree a possum ? 400- then you would do the same as last yr go to the dog with the highest single plus point cast win

Yes, the way it is set up now...unless you have 2 cast wins with more than 400+ going into the 3rd night....you could very well wipeout all of your plus if you get scratched for any reason. And if people do not get 400- for choosing not to hunt any of the 3 nights....how many with 2 cast wins might just choose to sit out the 3rd night so they don't have to risk wiping out the score they already have locked in with 2 cast wins???

Posted by Sawblade on 03-25-2013 12:30 AM:

I'm saying

I'm saying it is not the way to choose a National Days winner. How is it fair to give anyone -400 points for being 1 minute late. I agree the guy looses the cast and it doesn't count as a 3rd win. But to kick him while he's down and say oh by the way you had enough points to still win because your 2 night total was the best and we have no other 3 night winners but we think you deserve -400 cause you were 1 minute late. Sorry go home now you loose.... It's just crap. If we are going to fix this thing than lets get rid of some of these rules that have haunted us in the past . No one should loose that way.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-25-2013 12:35 AM:

Oh my goodness, this is really getting confusing now. So the "change" is not really a "change" but just a "clarification"? And it does sound like it needed to be "clarified". So, will everyone be able to see it in writing and read it so that we will understand how it is going to work beforehand? I am sure glad that I am not the one that has to figure out just who the Overall Champion is. I remember one year when Tara was declared the Overall Champion late Sat night and I was given the trophy. On the way home Sunday afternoon, I recieved a phone call saying that a "mistake" had been made and I had to give the trophy back.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-25-2013 12:35 AM:

Re: I'm saying

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I'm saying it is not the way to choose a National Days winner. How is it fair to give anyone -400 points for being 1 minute late. I agree the guy looses the cast and it doesn't count as a 3rd win. But to kick him while he's down and say oh by the way you had enough points to still win because your 2 night total was the best and we have no other 3 night winners but we think you deserve -400 cause you were 1 minute late. Sorry go home now you loose.... It's just crap. If we are going to fix this thing than lets get rid of some of these rules that have haunted us in the past . No one should loose that way.

A deadline is a deadline....does it matter if its a minute late or 2 hrs late?
Where would you draw the line? The winner has to be decided and trophies handed out after the deadline on saturday. Everyone understands what the deadline means. If that is a problem...just make the deadline an hour later. I don't think you should give credit to someone who gets scratched under ukc rules. Rules are rules. But hey...I will play by whatever rules the majority decides it wants to go by.

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-25-2013 12:39 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness, this is really getting confusing now. So the "change" is not really a "change" but just a "clarification"? And it does sound like it needed to be "clarified". So, will everyone be able to see it in writing and read it so that we will understand how it is going to work beforehand? I am sure glad that I am not the one that has to figure out just who the Overall Champion is. I remember one year when Tara was declared the Overall Champion late Sat night and I was given the trophy. On the way home Sunday afternoon, I recieved a phone call saying that a "mistake" had been made and I had to give the trophy back.

man thats terrible Richard... Did you make them come get it??? I think folks single you out at times... Thats the worst thing Ive ever heard of that happened to a feller....

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Posted by Chad Byrd on 03-25-2013 12:39 AM:

Re: I'm saying

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I'm saying it is not the way to choose a National Days winner. How is it fair to give anyone -400 points for being 1 minute late. I agree the guy looses the cast and it doesn't count as a 3rd win. But to kick him while he's down and say oh by the way you had enough points to still win because your 2 night total was the best and we have no other 3 night winners but we think you deserve -400 cause you were 1 minute late. Sorry go home now you loose.... It's just crap. If we are going to fix this thing than lets get rid of some of these rules that have haunted us in the past . No one should loose that way.

I agree Kelly don't kickem when there down

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-25-2013 12:42 AM:

I will not hunt in this hunt if deadlines and rules are not strictly enforced....are you guys kidding me???
The rules have to be followed and if you miss the deadline you are scratched and you get 400- for that....sorry bout your luck! Its not about kicking anyone....are we also going to let people enter who are 1 minute late getting to the hunt???

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-25-2013 12:51 AM:

Whatever the rules are they need to be black and white. You can't allow sympathy for people who have bad luck. Just about everyone who doesn't win a cast has bad luck. The rules need to be clear and concise and enforced....or we will create an even bigger mess. I will compete under whatever rules are decided upon...but I want to know what they are and understand them...before the hunt starts.

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-25-2013 01:18 AM:

I agree

I would like to see it in black and white in the yearly Redbook... And if it gets changed make certain it changes in the redbook b4 it effects a hunter

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-25-2013 02:28 AM:

not the dead line.

I am not saying anything about the dead line not counting. I said he would not get a cast win if late . Everyone understands that. My point is . Giving someone -400 points that they did not earn is no way to fairly pick a National Days winner. No one should get a -400 points unless they have minused out during the hunt. The National gives these points to anyone who is scratched or withdraws for any reason. I know it's been that way for a long time but that doesn't make it right.

I am suggesting that minus points only count for tie breaking. They should not be counted against someone's cast win score unless needed to determine a tie. minus points should not be able wipe out someone's 2 night win score and allow a 1 night cast winner to place ahead . That is wrong, 3 cast wins beats 2 cast wins every time. 2 cast wins beats 1 cast win every time. Minus points are not subtracted from cast win scores unless to determine a tie breaker. That is my opinion and I hope that is how we figure it.

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