UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- American Leopard Hound (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=46)
-- inbreeding (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928332219)

just getting started

new to hound hunting but both of my hounds have been spoiled pet s till about a year old and crazy hounds in the woods. I will tell you one thing they sure learn quick in the woods when they have been taught the difference between wrong and right at a young age. Genetics play a huge role but when you throw some good obediance training in there it can go a long way not to mention a way more enjoyable night in the woods.

__________________
Tyler/Karisa and the leopard NITE CH CH Reaper's Shine'n Dixie (2013 World Qualifier)(mn sd ia tri state nite hunt champion 2013)

Good info!

Good stuff! Thanks!
John Williams

up

btt

GREAT POST AND GREAT THREAD

I know this thread is old but I also raise mine in the house till they wear out there welcome..lol Usually around 6-7 months old. The difference in the way a pup turns out is night and day. Even hounds will handle like curs. Sorry for bringing up the past...lol Couldnt help it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kayapellijed390
Very interesting article! The end of that article basically sums up why I will never guarantee my pups to run and tree like so many other breeders do. I have absolutely no problem guaranteeing their health and would be more than happy to refund anyones money or replace a pup if it had some kind genetic disorder or anything like that. However I am a FIRM! believer that the more time you spend with your pup at those critical bonding ages as well as throughout there training can and does have a dramatic result on how they will turn out later in life. I especially believe that these leopards are even more sensitive and can be ruined far more easily than any of the other hound breeds as a whole. I truly believe that these leopards never reach their full potential unless they have a signifigant amount of one on one and very personal time as pups. I believe that later in life they can and will thrive just fine in the kennel but those beginning stages of development and socialization can make or break a dog. I have seen and attempted to train far too many young dogs ( including a few leopards) that where messed up at a young age and never recovered. I also have seen firsthand that not seperating your pups between 12 weeks and 6 months of age tends to cause them to develop more of a pack mentality and they never seem to develop that bond with a human unless they are seperated and forced to socialize and rely specifically on a human. The times I have raised a few young dogs in the same pen, I have always had problems. They sure got along with each other good but not one that I raised like that has ever turned out as good as a pup that was raised in its own pen or better yet in the house! I do not think that all pups need to be raised in the house but I do think it is easier to insure the proper amount of bonding and socialization will occur if you do. It can be done other ways I just personally find it is much easier to do that way. I also let all of my pups run loose constantly until they either start doing something very naughty (like constantly knocking over the trash), they start wandering too far out of the yard, or they start running and treeing to much game. The differance in pups I have raised this way versus the ones I have got as six months- a year old, or let grow up in a kennel until I decided they where old enough to start is absolutely astounding. So far the pups that we have produced that have turned out the best have all had a ton of one on one time and several where raised in the house. For example - Tyler's Dixie, and Gary Somer's Reaper where both raised in the house and went everywhere with the people who raised them. I am not sure if Todd Symanski's Memphis was raised in the house or not but I do know for sure that he was treated much like a pet than a tool in the shed. Todd has sent me several pictures of Memphis riding in the truck and the dog actually belongs to his daughter who I am sure spoiled him rotten! I would rather see a pup go to a teenage girl than to your average ol coonhunter who has owned and raised hundreds of dogs over the years. I usually can count on the girl spoiling a pup with love and affection. It goes a lot further than you think!

---

Re: thanks Daavid

quote:

---

Originally posted by frog
Maybe UKC will make this a sticky thread. It's a thread with a lot of great info and opinions. Something well worth referring back to in the future. Thanks for asking the question David. I kinda knew the direction I wanted to go, but now I know. So much easier to learn from guys that have been there done that and I for one am grateful that all of y'all shared your thoughts and comments and opinions.

---

It has been my experience that inbreeding and/or linebreeding can produce really good results but only when the breeding stock be it dogs or birds have a really good solid genetic foundation. If they don,t have good solid genetic traits you will only be magnifying the traits that are there and if the breeding stock have genetic defects these will be even more pronounced in the inbred or linebred offspring.On the other hand if you are fortunate enough to have foundation breeding stock with real good genetics both in physical traits and mental traits that are dominant in putting these traits in their offspring you can set them as a strain by inbreeding and linebreeding with a well thought out selection process of which ones to use as breeders. Many well known strains within breeds of dogs have been developed this way.Inbreeding and linebreeding is necessary to keep a strain of dogs uniform and to keep them producing offspring with predictable desired traits.I have with the help of some close friends been breeding a strain of treeing feist for close to 30 years.I started with some little Riverun Treeing Feist from Jerry Arrington.I have over the years placed some of the best individuals from the litters we raised with people in easy driving distance on the agreement I might get to use the dog for breeding later.Several of these people have started their own breeding program with these dogs.We have enough dogs in this genetic pool to family breed these dogs.None of us intentionally set out to breed this way but we noticed as we went that by breeding the best individuals in this line to each other and not outcrossing that the dogs were getting better and more uniform.These little dogs are well known in our area as squirrel treeing machines that are complete naturals requiring very little training just exposure to the desired game.The percentage of dogs in each litter that are turning out to be good ones is high enough that no one would believe me unless they happen to own some of this strain.On the other side of the coin I have seen strains of dogs that had to be outcrossed to get better off spring.It all depends on how strong the good genetic traits are in foundation stock that you start with.Myself im a firm believer that inbreeding and linebreeding is a necessary part of any breeding program where the goal is to preserve and improve the traits of a line of dogs instead of outcrossing and winding up in a few generations with something completely different than what we started with.These are just my thoughts and opinions.I,m not saying my ways are right and others are wrong.I,m just saying this is what has worked for me.Other people have no doubt reached their breeding goals with entirely different methods.These different methods are interesting to me as a breeder and I can usually learn something I didn't know by reading them.

__________________
Kirkland Kennels, At Stud American Leopard Hound Kirklands Hard Knockin Chug UKC Perf.Sire DNA-P Dedicated to breeding better Leopards and Walkers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by sam kirkland
It has been my experience that inbreeding and/or linebreeding can produce really good results but only when the breeding stock be it dogs or birds have a really good solid genetic foundation. If they don,t have good solid genetic traits you will only be magnifying the traits that are there and if the breeding stock have genetic defects these will be even more pronounced in the inbred or linebred offspring.On the other hand if you are fortunate enough to have foundation breeding stock with real good genetics both in physical traits and mental traits that are dominant in putting these traits in their offspring you can set them as a strain by inbreeding and linebreeding with a well thought out selection process of which ones to use as breeders. Many well known strains within breeds of dogs have been developed this way.Inbreeding and linebreeding is necessary to keep a strain of dogs uniform and to keep them producing offspring with predictable desired traits.I have with the help of some close friends been breeding a strain of treeing feist for close to 30 years.I started with some little Riverun Treeing Feist from Jerry Arrington.I have over the years placed some of the best individuals from the litters we raised with people in easy driving distance on the agreement I might get to use the dog for breeding later.Several of these people have started their own breeding program with these dogs.We have enough dogs in this genetic pool to family breed these dogs.None of us intentionally set out to breed this way but we noticed as we went that by breeding the best individuals in this line to each other and not outcrossing that the dogs were getting better and more uniform.These little dogs are well known in our area as squirrel treeing machines that are complete naturals requiring very little training just exposure to the desired game.The percentage of dogs in each litter that are turning out to be good ones is high enough that no one would believe me unless they happen to own some of this strain.On the other side of the coin I have seen strains of dogs that had to be outcrossed to get better off spring.It all depends on how strong the good genetic traits are in foundation stock that you start with.Myself im a firm believer that inbreeding and linebreeding is a necessary part of any breeding program where the goal is to preserve and improve the traits of a line of dogs instead of outcrossing and winding up in a few generations with something completely different than what we started with.These are just my thoughts and opinions.I,m not saying my ways are right and others are wrong.I,m just saying this is what has worked for me.Other people have no doubt reached their breeding goals with entirely different methods.These different methods are interesting to me as a breeder and I can usually learn something I didn't know by reading them.

---

[Originally posted by frog]
[Maybe UKC will make this a sticky thread. It's a thread with a lot of great info and opinions. Something well worth referring back to in the future. Thanks for asking the question David. I kinda knew the direction I wanted to go, but now I know. So much easier to learn from guys that have been there done that and I for one am grateful that all of y'all shared your thoughts and comments and opinions.]

I love reading this stuff, You can never know everything and can always learn more. Got to stay open minded. This is a very good thread, a lot of good info...thanks for bringing it back to top guys..

__________________
Jason Clark
Home of over 25 yrs of Line bred Brookshier hounds!
Home of Line bred Durbins Rambler Hounds and heavy line bred Rolling Hills hounds.

~Where a man's word still means something & a handshake is all We need!!!

~Grntch Chestnut Grove Ben Semen(Full Brother to Uplinger's Joe & Son of Logan's Wild Clover x Sandy Creek Daisy) Not For Sale - Frank Hummel/Jason Clark

~Grntch Hardwood Whiner/Rolling Hills Hunter Semen(Son of Durbin's Rambler x Rolling Hills Jane) Not For Sale




~Dual ch.Brookshiers Finley River Driver(2007 Walker days 1st place & high scoring walker male sat) (Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~3 Wins to Grand, Nitch Clark's Mr.Wilson HTX(Driver x Cane River Cry Babe) Qualified 2014, 2016 UKC World Hunt
~Brookshier's Finley River Salty (Grntch. Brookshier's Finley River Sting x Cane River Trudy,Trudy is a Littermate to Wilson and Sassy)
~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper (Driver x Kraviks Babe) Uncle niece cross
~Brookshier's Finley River Momba (Driver X Kraviks Babe) Uncle Niece Cross
~Nitch Cane River Sassy (Driver x Cane River Cry Babe)Qualified 2012 UKC World Hunt
~Clark's Finley River Spot(Finley River Zig x Ramblin Jane) Winer and Ramblin Jane are Brother&Sister
~Clark's Rolling Hills Skinner (Grntch Hardwood Winer x Clark's Finley River Spot)
~Nitch Brookshier's Crosscountry Gert. (Uncle Lee x Crosscountry music) Daughter of Lone Pine Dewey
~Nitch Brookshier's Finley River Viper(Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~Brookshier's Fullblown Rage (Uncle Lee x Finley River Molly ) Daughter of F.R. Lonnie x Fulkerson's F.R. Suzy
~Clark's Little River (Grntch Shoemakers Gator x Grntch Shoemakers Lou
~Brookshier's Otter Creek Dan (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Little Lady (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Penns. Scooby (Denny Burn's Willie x Backwater Kate ,Uncle Lee's mother)

Just curious, when you guys inbreed/linebreed, did you see any pups showing up looking like anything besides leopard????

thanks guys.clark so true OPEN MINDS and seeing outside the box is a wonderfull trait. never lose that quality.

I also am a breeder of pigeons. I inbreed them so close that most would say that it is wrong. The end result is I end up with what I want. It may take a couple of generations and I might raise 100 to get the 1 I need to go foward with, but it works. I just never carried it that far with hounds. I am very open minded and this has been very good reading. John Clark was a good freind of mine. I hunted many times with John. He only lived 6 miles away. I know how he bred his Curs.

bobby do you race pigeon or have fancy birds. sam very good post. I have no trouble believing your breeding results.i have seen for 50 years what line and inbreeding can do with racing pigeons and dogs

quote:

---

Originally posted by canadian curs
bobby do you race pigeon or have fancy birds. sam very good post. I have no trouble believing your breeding results.i have seen for 50 years what line and inbreeding can do with racing pigeons and dogs

---

thanks bobby. you must pay him well. I had a quick look at his site hes got some top blood there. take care

I am just the general foreman, his pay comes from someone above me,lol

Coon Dogs and Race Horses

I started another thread about the breeding of other great animals...mainly Race Horses, ....Maybe something we don't know about breeding Horses and The X- Factor that we can use in breeding our coon dogs...Take a look ..

__________________
Jason Clark
Home of over 25 yrs of Line bred Brookshier hounds!
Home of Line bred Durbins Rambler Hounds and heavy line bred Rolling Hills hounds.

~Where a man's word still means something & a handshake is all We need!!!

~Grntch Chestnut Grove Ben Semen(Full Brother to Uplinger's Joe & Son of Logan's Wild Clover x Sandy Creek Daisy) Not For Sale - Frank Hummel/Jason Clark

~Grntch Hardwood Whiner/Rolling Hills Hunter Semen(Son of Durbin's Rambler x Rolling Hills Jane) Not For Sale




~Dual ch.Brookshiers Finley River Driver(2007 Walker days 1st place & high scoring walker male sat) (Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~3 Wins to Grand, Nitch Clark's Mr.Wilson HTX(Driver x Cane River Cry Babe) Qualified 2014, 2016 UKC World Hunt
~Brookshier's Finley River Salty (Grntch. Brookshier's Finley River Sting x Cane River Trudy,Trudy is a Littermate to Wilson and Sassy)
~Brookshier's Finley River Sniper (Driver x Kraviks Babe) Uncle niece cross
~Brookshier's Finley River Momba (Driver X Kraviks Babe) Uncle Niece Cross
~Nitch Cane River Sassy (Driver x Cane River Cry Babe)Qualified 2012 UKC World Hunt
~Clark's Finley River Spot(Finley River Zig x Ramblin Jane) Winer and Ramblin Jane are Brother&Sister
~Clark's Rolling Hills Skinner (Grntch Hardwood Winer x Clark's Finley River Spot)
~Nitch Brookshier's Crosscountry Gert. (Uncle Lee x Crosscountry music) Daughter of Lone Pine Dewey
~Nitch Brookshier's Finley River Viper(Uncle Lee x Finley River Sally)
~Brookshier's Fullblown Rage (Uncle Lee x Finley River Molly ) Daughter of F.R. Lonnie x Fulkerson's F.R. Suzy
~Clark's Little River (Grntch Shoemakers Gator x Grntch Shoemakers Lou
~Brookshier's Otter Creek Dan (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Little Lady (Uncle Lee x Otter Creek Hanna, Daughter of Otter Creek Rusty)
~Brookshier's Penns. Scooby (Denny Burn's Willie x Backwater Kate ,Uncle Lee's mother)

Reading this it sounds like yall are still breeding for visible traits, or phenotypes. Am I wrong, or have you actually identified traits as dominant or recessive in the genotype that you can predict with some accuracy to show up by the proper matching of dogs? I'm not knocking the thread, I am very interested in this.

__________________
www.dividinglinekennel.com

Wow

More time in the woods seeing what characteristics are present and less time tapping on a computer and studying pedigrees would be a great place to start. Science is great but no substitute for knowing dogs. The most consistent breeders that I know spend very little time talking about theories. They wear out a couple of pairs of boots a year following pups. A little less talk and a lot more action is what's called for in a successful breeding program. JMO

what Wes said, i dont even breed dogs and I know that...I wouldnt give a dime to someone who sits down and breeds dogs on paper and talks about geno crap theory whatever it is

drop the crap and put your boots on cuz you aint proving anything to anyone (who actually hunts their dogs)

It will be interesting to keep on eye on these breeding projects, as they say the proof is in the pudding. The part I can't get away from though, is, if this type of breeding program works so good why hasn't somebody in the Walker breed come along and bred a bunch of super dogs. All of the money and resources for this type of breeding program are in that breed. Guys paying $50,000 for a stud dog and what not.

__________________
Lonetree Kennels "Where dogs are made one tree at a time."
Home of-
David and Jessica Smith 605-270-2674
GRNITECH 'PR' DERBY CITY SANDY
GRNITECH GRCH CASH'S CAMO JUG OF SHINE
--2012 National Grand Nite Champion American Leopard Hound
--High Scoring Leopard 2012 Autumn Oaks
--High scoring Leopard Saturday night at Leopard days 2011
--Qualified for the 2011 UKC World Hunt.
--High Scoring Leopard of the 2011 UKC World Hunt
--Breed Winner for the 2011 Purina Race Hunt
--2011 South Dakota State Hunt Champion
CH RYLEIGH'S GRIM REAPER
--Tri-State Coonhunters Association 2010 Bench show dog of the year

And the Redbone--
2013 Tri-State Overall Bench Show Dog of the Year:
'PR' CH RAGGED RIDGE CJ (Willie) co-owned with Bob Julson

where did i say my post was directed towards you or anyone in particular? so quick to take offense

I'm not pointing any fingers Mike. I'm just saying that in my opinion there is no substitute for spending time in the woods following offspring. That is the only way you will know if what you are doing is on track. My point is I think there is too much emphasis placed on pedigrees and not enough on using dogs that are full of natural ability. Again this is just my opinion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by dchartt
what Wes said, i dont even breed dogs and I know that...I wouldnt give a dime to someone who sits down and breeds dogs on paper and talks about geno crap theory whatever it is

drop the crap and put your boots on cuz you aint proving anything to anyone (who actually hunts their dogs)

---

__________________
Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

quote:

---

Originally posted by kayapellijed390
It will be interesting to keep on eye on these breeding projects, as they say the proof is in the pudding. The part I can't get away from though, is, if this type of breeding program works so good why hasn't somebody in the Walker breed come along and bred a bunch of super dogs. All of the money and resources for this type of breeding program are in that breed. Guys paying $50,000 for a stud dog and what not.

---

__________________
Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

kayapellijed390, sent you a PM.

__________________
Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505