UKC Forums - Lets talk some breeding

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Posted by Preston Owens on 02-20-2013 10:09 PM:

on Topic

Serious hunters/breeders might want to take a look at some of the nice young hounds winning in competition such as Pigeon River Big Red Jim and John Henry, as far as the Banjo3 X Nacula's Mandolin cross the buddy dog I sold sired a litter off a female from Ghost X Sister and the pup Called "Hammer" is winning $kc and in ukc. Looking forward, those males that are available for the public to see "could" play a very good role in breeding better coondogs. I like everything iv seen about Jim, I've spent many nights with him and he is something to look at. Just thought I'd give a couple guys some advertising on some very nice well bred living males. I think sometimes GREAT hounds are overlooked... Good thread folks

__________________
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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-20-2013 10:16 PM:

Re: on Topic

quote:
Originally posted by Preston Owens
Serious hunters/breeders might want to take a look at some of the nice young hounds winning in competition such as Pigeon River Big Red Jim and John Henry, as far as the Banjo3 X Nacula's Mandolin cross the buddy dog I sold sired a litter off a female from Ghost X Sister and the pup Called "Hammer" is winning $kc and in ukc. Looking forward, those males that are available for the public to see "could" play a very good role in breeding better coondogs. I like everything iv seen about Jim, I've spent many nights with him and he is something to look at. Just thought I'd give a couple guys some advertising on some very nice well bred living males. I think sometimes GREAT hounds are overlooked... Good thread folks

I hunted with Jim the redbone days before last and thought he was a nice young dog then....since we are talking breeding here, can you post his pedigree and Buddy's so we can see where they came from?

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by Preston Owens on 02-20-2013 10:56 PM:

Re: Re: on Topic

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
I hunted with Jim the redbone days before last and thought he was a nice young dog then....since we are talking breeding here, can you post his pedigree and Buddy's so we can see where they came from?

...............................................Fireball III
...........................Meltons red Banjo
...............................................camp creek sue
....Banjo III
...................................Melton's TN Redman
.........................Melton's redmans meg
...................................Melton's Treetalking Queen

Big Jim

.......................................Hoffmiester's Rusty Red
.....................Bunch's Flatwoods Hawk
.......................................Gorham's long Tall Sally
....Muddy creek Hightest Hiedi
........................................Rutter Pine Meadow Amos
......................Butternut Creek red Shady lady
.......................................Noss' So MT Show Time Molly

.............Banjo III

......Omary's Little Buddy ( Littermate to Jon Henry and mandy II)

............................Yellow river Red Doc
Nacula's Mandolin
.............................Sawblade Fiddle

__________________
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Posted by Sawblade on 02-21-2013 12:40 AM:

interesting

look at this ,it's kinda interesting Heidi's Grandma is "Sally"

..........................Hoffmeisters Rusty Red
...............Bunches Flatwoods Hawk
..........................Gorhams Twin oak Long Tall Sally
.........Muddy Creek High Test Heidi
..........................Rutter Pine Meadow Amos
...............Butter Nut Creek Red Shady Lady
..........................Noss So Mt Show Time Molly

and so is Fiddles

...........................Mill Creek Fire in Jim
.................Red Sage
...........................Gorhams Twin Oak Long Tall Sally
.......Sawblade Fiddle
...........................Mooreheads Timber chopper Jake
.................Hydes Runnin red Feather
...........................Mooreheads Red Southern Belle

HMMMMM

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by Have One Reds on 02-21-2013 01:29 AM:

Heidi is one heck of a coon dog...props for Derek Metzger

__________________
Dan Delp

Posted by Preston Owens on 02-21-2013 01:38 AM:

sawblade

Interesting isn't it, I had Buddy, open trailing track dog that had a good mouth but slobbered at the tree and choked down, I hunted with Jim,Holly,and Skinny Oct 2012, fast quick locating lockdown tree dogs. I own one from the 2nd cross, she is currently treeing squirrels, banjo 3 has some other nice young dogs out there from other females. It seems he is covering females from several lines. Possibly a "prepotent"sire. I saw a video of pups from Jon blowing it out on a hang up coon (young pups) looks like the Hammer is fixing to be tough to handle when he grows up. Interesting things coming

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Posted by Sawblade on 02-21-2013 01:41 AM:

she is

I have hunted with Heidi a bunch and she is one of the best Redbone females I know of. All Coondog. and a good reproducer. Derek was just at the house about an hour ago and told me one more nitech and Heidi is on the top reproducers list.

Posted by Preston Owens on 02-21-2013 01:52 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Have One Reds
Heidi is one heck of a coon dog...props for Derek Metzger

I never hunted with Hiedi but I know some who have and I've heard she was tough, Derek is a 1st class man as well, I really enjoyed meeting him. He has some very nice hounds and nobody take me wrong, I know it takes the right "cross" to make an impact. Not just 1 dog. I'd say Marlin Martin needs a pat on the back for breeding up the Hawk X Shady Lady dogs. As well as Sawblade for the Mandolin cross, ( Doc X Fiddle) it won't do much good to run the #'s on either cross, they don't "line" up but they sure did work. Interesting I think

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Posted by Preston Owens on 02-21-2013 01:57 AM:

Hiedi

That should happen easily, I'd say the 6 pups from the 2nd cross I have kept up with are looking VERY promising @ 6mths old I figure Hiedi will see some big #'s in the next couple years.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-21-2013 02:32 AM:

I have a question for the guys hunting Rabble dogs....
What are the main differences in the crosses that produced the following dogs?
Rocky
Deuce and Red
Haze
Moose
What are the differences in mouth, how fast and how much they open? Do they all have good or similar locates and tree styles?
Also, how are they similar on the same traits I just asked about.
I know these dogs have other titled litter mates I have probably heard of but I was not sure what female they were out of. We have been looking at the Rabble line as one possible out cross for some of our females in the future and I would like to know more about their traits...good...and bad. Thanks

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-21-2013 04:06 PM:

I just noticed on another post that the #2 Historical Reproducer, Rusty Red's mother was the product of a half brother/sister cross out of Henning's Chief. This made her very heavy linebred Rambling Red Ace. She was outcrossed to produce Rusty Red. This made Rusty a home run bred hound. Rusty's (in my opinion) best crosses then came when he was bred back to a good Ace bred female. This is how Bomber, the #4 Historical Reproducer, was bred. So, maybe we are on to something. It seems like the supercrosses of yesteryear were bred this way but most breeders kinda got away from this. Maybe we should go back to it.

Posted by RON WOLTER on 02-21-2013 04:12 PM:

Preducing Winners

Shane= One trate they r doing is, winning, & preducing winners
& thats 4 sure, must b somthing in that
ingreadiant that we are looking for-??

-_-Redcoat-_-

__________________
Ron Wolter
Redcoat

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-21-2013 04:24 PM:

MRG,
What do you see when you analyze Moonlight Kate's pedigree?
She is linebred Amos' Burning Ben......but are he and the other common ancestors behind her lined up correctly to have produced a dominant reproducer like Kate? Do you find any similarities when analyzing other dominant reproducers in the redbone breed or other breeds. I know the redbones don't have the reproducing records that many of the walkers do....so it may be more obvious when analyzing a powerhouse reproducer like stylish hickory nut harry, rat attack, or nocturnal nailor.
Bottom line....is there a common link between dominant prepotent reproducers and the way they were bred?
Just asking for your personal opinion.
And one last question...do you feel that we will ever get to the point where we can somewhat accurately predict the outcome of a particular cross?
Keep up the great work....I think as a breed we are learning alot from what you post and I am not seeing other breeds analyzing things in the same manor...yet. We may just be on to something

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-21-2013 04:35 PM:

As I have said from the beginning, one of my goals is to produce redbones that can win at the top levels of competition AND...that have a pedigree that makes sense.
What I mean by that is when you hunt with the dog....you can then look back over it's pedigree (assuming you know many of it's ancestors) and you can see why it is like it is. You can trace back certain traits to certain dogs and see where they were locked in as dominant traits by the careful, well planned, selective breeding of individual dogs who carried those traits. I know this is taking a scientific approach to breeding and understanding this breed better....but if we want to rise to the top of all breeds in the competition world....I think it maybe key to reaching that goal. We have pretty much bred the same way for many, many generations and progress is being made...but at a snails pace compared to what I believe might someday be possible. some things are hard to accept because they seem counter intuitive....but as we learn more...maybe more people will open up to these ways of breeding and it may just give our breed the bump it needs.

Posted by Don Barnett Sr on 02-21-2013 11:34 PM:

Traits

I have not hunted with Rocky, Red,Haze, or Moose. But I have hunted with Rage, Musicmaker witch is a littermate to Rocky. And several other of the Rabble offspring. Some of the things I have seen in them that they have in common are. Mouth, bawl on track, chop on tree. Hunt, they dont fool around. Most that I have seen get struck quick and open good on track. They have all been very good treedogs. I ain't seen a mean one yet. They are good looking hounds, put togather nicely. I have hunted with guys that have hunted with Rocky and those others. And they have said Deuce has all the same traits as those sibblings.
Im not very good with desriptions and such. I hope some of this is helpful to yall. I will be glad to answer any questions you have the best that I can.
Lets work together and breed a better RED COONDOG.

Posted by Danny Barrett on 02-22-2013 01:02 AM:

but as we learn more...maybe more people will open up to these ways of breeding and it may just give our breed the bump it needs.
I was there in the day when the redbone breed got a pretty good bump. Hayes Rambling Red Ace comes up quite often on here and deservingly so. Although Aces papers says different he was the product of a littermate brother sister cross and his grandparents were half brother and sister. This was not planned but accidental as most people are reluctant to try a cross like this. Ace sure proved his worth through as a winner in the hunts and more importantly as a dominant repoducer. I remember when lots of hunters were breeding to Ace you could go to redbone days and pick out every dog there out of him. I have talked to cattle breeders and have been told a good sire or dam will pass on their likeness. The downside was that Ace was plagued with some health problems during his life, one being a terrible foot fungus when he was a little over a year old at which time I could have bought him for 240.00. Ace died at 6 years old from kidney failure and I always wondered if it could have been a genetic weakness that shortened the life of this great hound.

__________________
Pigeon River Redbones

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-22-2013 01:30 AM:

In the past...breeding that close was considered taboo by many and ukc even stamped your papers as INBRED if it was anywhere close. I think that scared alot of people. But when I get a litter of pups that grow up to be what I am looking for...I will have no problem crossing a brother and sister to lock in those traits. The next cross on Breanna will probably be to her uncle Aftershock and we may also cross a female out of Breanna and Billy on a male out of Deana and Billy in the future after they have proven themselves.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-22-2013 02:10 AM:

Kate

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
MRG,
What do you see when you analyze Moonlight Kate's pedigree?
She is linebred Amos' Burning Ben......but are he and the other common ancestors behind her lined up correctly to have produced a dominant reproducer like Kate? Do you find any similarities when analyzing other dominant reproducers in the redbone breed or other breeds. I know the redbones don't have the reproducing records that many of the walkers do....so it may be more obvious when analyzing a powerhouse reproducer like stylish hickory nut harry, rat attack, or nocturnal nailor.
Bottom line....is there a common link between dominant prepotent reproducers and the way they were bred?
Just asking for your personal opinion.
And one last question...do you feel that we will ever get to the point where we can somewhat accurately predict the outcome of a particular cross?
Keep up the great work....I think as a breed we are learning alot from what you post and I am not seeing other breeds analyzing things in the same manor...yet. We may just be on to something

I have a lot of that info here that Mike ran for me on rebel and Ann, I think Mark said when he looked at Ann's ped rebel's momma 32 out of 36 dogs in the ped were the same so the charts and numbers would be real similar but I dont know how to read it.

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Mark Zepp on 02-22-2013 03:55 AM:

Sawblade and Preston,

That is interesting on "Sally".

.......................................Hoffmiester's Rusty Red
.....................Bunch's Flatwoods Hawk
.......................................Gorham's long Tall Sally

Twenty or so years ago, I carried her from OH back out to Missouri to be bred to Rusty. I was working at Wick's then.

I was home, back in OH, on vacation and stopped in to see Jerry Brasee in Wellington, who owned Sally.

Jerry took me on my first coon hunt as a kid and I still stop in to hunt with him a few nights a year. She was a super, super nice animal..... could grub up a bad track and tree coons other dogs didn't know were in the woods. She was a GR.CH. and easily could have been a GR. NT. but was never put in a hunt to my knowledge.

When I stopped in to see Jerry and Sally was dripping, I begged him to let me take her out west and get bred to Rusty. She was just such a nice dog and should have been bred every time she came into heat.

There were several nice dogs out of the litter and I think he bred her to a few local dogs over the years and she always seemed to reproduce no matter what she was breed to.

She was one of the nicest red dogs I've ever seen. It's nice to know she is still "around".

Hope all you guys breed some World Champions.

Warmest regards,

Mark

__________________
Mark Zepp

Posted by Churchy3044 on 02-22-2013 04:04 AM:

We are breeding our female this spring to rusty red frozen seman. Now our female is bred hoffmeister top and bottom with rusty red as her grandpa. Is this considered a supercross or just plain old line nreeding ?

Posted by mmarshall on 02-22-2013 04:46 AM:

**********Grnt burning Ben
*******Grnt billy the kid
**********Grnt outlaw Jessie
*****Outlaws Infamous Amos
**********Grnt wrong way ace
*******Grnt moonlight deana
**********Grnt moonlight Kate
Pups
**********Grnt burning Ben
*******Grnt outlaw billy the kid
**********Grnt outlaw Jessie
*****Moonlights outlaw grace
**********Grnt moonlight Bo
*******Grnt ky moonlight Bree
**********Grnt moonlight deana

Grace and amos have great mouths both naturals this is a cross planned later this year half brother sister uncle niece

__________________
mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Posted by Preston Owens on 02-22-2013 04:46 AM:

Mark

I hope someone breeds a World champ redbone someday, I like these breeding threads, its very interesting to see the different opinions and also to learn about the ways that some dogs reproduce and some don't, I had a female in the early 90's that was a half breed and got bred to every dog of every breed that the nieghbor hood had, those pups made some very nice treedogs and they had 0 in the way of linebreeding/inbreeding, she just threw treedogs. No real reason that could be determined. I hope to see the breed as a whole improve to catch the attn of coonhunters from other breeds, it takes more in the way of selection and culling to improve in my opinion, no matter the breeding theory, select,breed,cull, and focus heavy on the natural ability to get treed. A nice pleasure hound can win hunts if taken, the just have to strike a coon tree the sucker and stay put, if they do that they will win their share, we all know that, I like Mike think linebreeding will increase the # of good redbones in any given litter if selection is under some kind of quality control standard, the real battle is getting folks willing to take those pups and see how they turn out. It will happen tho someday, I'm in no way in any kind of competition to be the one to breed up the 1st WLD champ. I'm after a little better coondog on my lead as each generation comes along. And as of now I've not bred a single female that I own, I'm in selection mode at the moment, waiting to see which Jack daughter that is the most similar to him to breed back to him. The uncle to niece cross seems like a dandy, the half bro sis cross (Banjo) made a few yrs ago went under Jack and its product is heading toward Goshen Moe, I'm excited to see the results but it just takes time to sort thru them. I wish all the best of luck, I've slightly touched on some plans put into effect a few yrs ago, time is a real factor in breeding up better coondogs! It takes lots of it to see a plan thru to the finished product

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Posted by rickp on 02-22-2013 04:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I just noticed on another post that the #2 Historical Reproducer, Rusty Red's mother was the product of a half brother/sister cross out of Henning's Chief. This made her very heavy linebred Rambling Red Ace. She was outcrossed to produce Rusty Red. This made Rusty a home run bred hound. Rusty's (in my opinion) best crosses then came when he was bred back to a good Ace bred female. This is how Bomber, the #4 Historical Reproducer, was bred. So, maybe we are on to something. It seems like the supercrosses of yesteryear were bred this way but most breeders kinda got away from this. Maybe we should go back to it.

This same supercross if thats what it is also produced Thomas Mo Brusier . That produced Outlaw Razor Red #1 UKC reproducer and Whites Jill Dam of Stepp's Little Pepper thats 3 strong lines that have a connection to this cross .

__________________
Rick Pruitt
580-924-0176
Home of:
GRNITECH GRCH PRUITT'S REBEL RED(GRNITECH GRCH PR KEYS OUTLAW RAZOR RED XGRCH CCH TREE RIZIN SOME KINDA WONDERFUL)
GRNITECH PRUITT'S BUCK (NITE CHAMPION PRUITT'S CHIEF X PRUITT'S MISS MOLLY)
NITE CHAMPION PRUITT'S CHIEF ( GRCH GRNITECH T-TOP DARK TIMBER MOOSE CH SOGGYBOTTOM LOCKET DOWN )
NITECH CH 'PR' TREE RIZIN' RAZOR'S RUSH ( RIP )(GRNITECH GRCH' KEY'S OUTLAW RAZOR RED X GRNITECH GRCH'PR' SOGGY BOTTOM T-TOP SHADOW)
NITECH PRUITT'S MAGGIE MAE (GRNITECH THE RED ROCKER X GRNITECH CH PR GUITAR'S GHOST MISSISSIPPI )
PRUITT'S MISS MOLLY ( CH YELLOW RIVER RED COPPER X FICKEN'S LATE NIGHT STAR )

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-22-2013 05:58 AM:

Mike,
Assuming you have line bred your dogs to the point that you are seeing very similar traits from the majority of the dogs from a litter, such as type of mouth,volume, tree style, drive, etc. If you have the access and ability to make the following crosses....which one would give you the best odds of producing the highest % of prepotent offspring? Also, which cross have you seen recurring the most in all of the pedigrees you have studied in dogs that you would deem great reproducers?
Father x daughter
Full brother x sister
Uncle x neice
1/2 brother x sister
Thanks, Shane

Posted by Sawblade on 02-22-2013 11:13 AM:

best out of a cross

Mrg, I'm starting to understand all those big words.
I like this last post ,it's what we have been trying to do with the S-cross. here's how it seems to be working from what I see.
First cross is half brother to half sister that puts the dog you want both top and bottom. We are looking for this first cross to result as a S-cross. If is does than the best offspring out of them get bred back thru by uncle /neice cross or aunt/ nephew. If that can't be done because a dog has died than you will have to breed cousin to cousin. either way this gets the dog you want on top and bottom for at least three of the four lines. What I think is important is you have to pick only the best offspring to include in the line breeding and in my opinion only the crosses that had s-cross results 3 or 4 titled dogs. Build on that and watch the stars line up. .

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