UKC Forums - Repeat Crosses....how often do they work?

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-- Repeat Crosses....how often do they work? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928305231)

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-07-2013 07:39 AM:

When you only look at first time crosses that produced a min of 2-3 titled dogs....then chances are that they went to competition hunters and so did the pups from repeat crosses. There is no way to reliably check facts on pleasure dogs because you have to depend on peoples opinions. If repeat crosses worked as well or better than first time crosses there would be some evidence using the criteria of titled dogs. I have explained how that works several times now on this post and still people post opinions and talk about repeat crosses that they "think" were just as good but nobody is posting actual numbers of repeat crosses that are higher than first time crosses. Paul was the only one who could find a cross that was even close to being equal and that is the first case in well over a hundred that I have studied. I just want the facts that can be verified by checking out actual crosses. It is obvious that many people "think" repeat crosses are just as good.....but I want to see fact based proof. Does anyone have any other examples....or is this myth busted?

__________________
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Posted by Mark Zepp on 03-07-2013 02:10 PM:

Shane -

I hate it, but I agree with 99% of what you have said.

Most of the really successful breeders I know stay away from repeat crosses and breed them to something else because they've tried it and it can't seem to replicate the results. I am sure they work sometimes and I am sure they don't at others, why that is, I have NO idea.

I don't agree with guys who say it's in the DNA so these crosses have to work and are surely going to be successful. I can't sit at dinner table for more than 2 minutes with my brother before we are throwing our salads back and forth at each other. He's skinny, I'm fat and we have NOTHING in common... we don't think the same way about any subject, anyone or anything yet we were raised in the same house by the same parents.

On your statement, " There is no way to reliably check facts on pleasure dogs because you have to depend on peoples opinions."... I agree but also say this, bullying handlers, inept judging, guys hunting the wrong dog, scorecards getting changed, guys never going to the woods and filling out a scorecard, etc. have to enter into how some of these "world beaters" got their titles.

I saw somewhere where you mentioned culling pups at birth because of this breed defect or that..... yet Stylish Queen, arguably the greatest, or one of the greatest reproducing/influential females in the Walker breed was born with one blue eye and sold for $50 as a pup at Kenton.

If people would have used that same philosophy, my buddy John Delcamp would have been knocked in the head at birth and I would have been denied the privledge of ever knowing him!

Good Luck to All!

Mark

__________________
Mark Zepp

Posted by Barnyard on 03-07-2013 02:33 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Zepp
Shane -

I hate it, but I agree with 99% of what you have said.

Most of the really successful breeders I know stay away from repeat crosses and breed them to something else because they've tried it and it can't seem to replicate the results. I am sure they work sometimes and I am sure they don't at others, why that is, I have NO idea.

I don't agree with guys who say it's in the DNA so these crosses have to work and are surely going to be successful. I can't sit at dinner table for more than 2 minutes with my brother before we are throwing our salads back and forth at each other. He's skinny, I'm fat and we have NOTHING in common... we don't think the same way about any subject, anyone or anything yet we were raised in the same house by the same parents.

On your statement, " There is no way to reliably check facts on pleasure dogs because you have to depend on peoples opinions."... I agree but also say this, bullying handlers, inept judging, guys hunting the wrong dog, scorecards getting changed, guys never going to the woods and filling out a scorecard, etc. have to enter into how some of these "world beaters" got their titles.

I saw somewhere where you mentioned culling pups at birth because of this breed defect or that..... yet Stylish Queen, arguably the greatest, or one of the greatest reproducing/influential females in the Walker breed was born with one blue eye and sold for $50 as a pup at Kenton.

If people would have used that same philosophy, my buddy John Delcamp would have been knocked in the head at birth and I would have been denied the privledge of ever knowing him!

Good Luck to All!

Mark

NOW, THAT RIGHT THERE WAS FUNNY....!!!! EVEN IF IT WAS ABOUT ME LOL!!!

__________________
Barnyard/ John W. Delcamp

Cell- 574-538-9431

Posted by oklared on 03-07-2013 04:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Barnyard
NOW, THAT RIGHT THERE WAS FUNNY....!!!! EVEN IF IT WAS ABOUT ME LOL!!!

ME TO MARK

__________________
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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-07-2013 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Zepp
Shane -

I hate it, but I agree with 99% of what you have said.

Most of the really successful breeders I know stay away from repeat crosses and breed them to something else because they've tried it and it can't seem to replicate the results. I am sure they work sometimes and I am sure they don't at others, why that is, I have NO idea.

I don't agree with guys who say it's in the DNA so these crosses have to work and are surely going to be successful. I can't sit at dinner table for more than 2 minutes with my brother before we are throwing our salads back and forth at each other. He's skinny, I'm fat and we have NOTHING in common... we don't think the same way about any subject, anyone or anything yet we were raised in the same house by the same parents.

On your statement, " There is no way to reliably check facts on pleasure dogs because you have to depend on peoples opinions."... I agree but also say this, bullying handlers, inept judging, guys hunting the wrong dog, scorecards getting changed, guys never going to the woods and filling out a scorecard, etc. have to enter into how some of these "world beaters" got their titles.

I saw somewhere where you mentioned culling pups at birth because of this breed defect or that..... yet Stylish Queen, arguably the greatest, or one of the greatest reproducing/influential females in the Walker breed was born with one blue eye and sold for $50 as a pup at Kenton.

If people would have used that same philosophy, my buddy John Delcamp would have been knocked in the head at birth and I would have been denied the privledge of ever knowing him!

Good Luck to All!

Mark

When I was talking about culling at birth or a very young age I mean for physical defects that would keep a dog from being able to hunt and tree coon as effectively as any other dog. I don't consider eye color one of those...lol
But, I imagine some people who show dogs might cull pups like that. This last litter I raised had a few pups that had kinks in their tails. I watched almost all of them be born and they came out like that. I thought maybe they got broke in the birthing process, but was told later by people familiar with this line that it is pretty common to see this and some of the best dogs in this line show that. The female I kept shows it....and it doesn't bother me that much. I do like a good looking dog....but just like in people....looks are not a good indicator of what's on the inside (thank God, cause I got the short end of the stick in that department...lol)
Mark you are a pretty lucky guy to have been able to spend alot of time around one of the all time great thinkers and trainers in the sport of coon hunting.....John Wick. I have read his books and magazine articles and I arrived at many of the same conclusions in training that he has over the years. What I like about John and what he writes is the fact that if he says he came to a particular conclusion through his personal experience....most of the time....if you test that method....you will come to the very same conclusion. Now I learned early on that when ever you can learn from other peoples mistakes....it is usually wise to do so and just about every problem that a trainer is likely to encounter can be found and explained in one of John's books. Just like this topic we are discussing on repeat crosses. John Wick did his own homework and made many repeat crosses and kept track of the results and my findings pretty much mirror his findings and many others who have studied this phenomenon. I wish I knew why they don't work as well...but it is probably going to remain a mystery....along with why pups from the same litter who came from the same parents can look different and act different. It is what it is and in my mind....making a repeat cross is a missed opportunity because if the first cross proved the parents were good reproducers and you can be pretty sure a repeat cross will not produce as good.....why not breed that female to another proven reproducer....then her 2nd litter may indeed be better than her first

Good to hear from you buddy....you need to take a break from selling all those Garmin products and get out in the woods before you forget why the rest of us won't turn a dog loose without one

Posted by Preston Owens on 03-08-2013 02:26 AM:

wow

Poor John! Lol mark you cracked me up with that 1 !

__________________
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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-08-2013 02:57 AM:

Got a call tonight while I was working and the man left me a message about this thread and wanted me to post an answer to his question on here for him.
The question was....how do 2nd or 3rd litters turn out out of females who had great results from their first cross....when those females are bred to different males? I think the caller is posing the question is it just repeat crosses between the same two parents that fail to produce as good of results as first time crosses....or is it just that a females first litter regardless of whether she is bred to the same male is always going to be her best and is usually never topped by later litters?
Howard, In all the studying of repeat crosses and all types of crosses....I have never found, or even read about that being true.
I can think of plenty of 2nd and 3rd crosses from females when bred to different males produced as good or better results as that females first litter.
Take Outlaw Jessie for example. Her first litter was by Fireball and produced 1 nt.ch. and the Key's told me the cross just wasn't very good. But her 2nd cross was on Timber Jack and it produced two dual grands and 2 nt.ch.s.(one of which was the best redbone I have ever seen in the woods) then the 3rd cross was to Burning Ben and produced 2 dual grands and 1 or 2 nt.ch.'s
I can also use Moonlight Kate as another example...her first litter was great with Little Pepper and produced several titled dogs...then she was later bred to Ace and produced a litter which includes 3 dual grand champions and another nt.ch..
So I guess what I am trying to say is that I have never seen anything that would lead me to believe that a females first litter is always going to be her best.....unless she gets bred back to the same male repeatedly....Shane

Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 03-08-2013 03:24 AM:

Just wondering

Shane
I know you have just made a cross with JET, I am wondering what the results would be if latter someone had used a stud like Jet then next time maybe bred to his full brother-Rocker or Pepper who are also GR Nites, just wondering if the next litters would be equal to the first, proably no one has every done this.
just wondering as I know of a couple of nice PA. females that are being bred to JET just this week, one being a Ntch Grch half sister to the female you just bred about 4 weeks go

__________________
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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-08-2013 03:31 AM:

Not sure Hersh...
I was wondering the same thing but with littermate sisters like bree and britt crossed on same male. To be honest, I cannot say I have looked over much data on crosses like that....but I would not hesitate to breed Britt to the same male if it crossed great on bree....

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-08-2013 04:12 AM:

No Danny, those were just the first time crosses on T.J. and Ben.
The repeat crosses produced I believe 1 nt.ch. from t.j. and 1 gr.nt.ch. from Ben. Not at home so I am not looking at my records but the repeat crosses were not nearly as good as the 1st time crosses as far as producing as many above average dogs.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-25-2013 10:02 PM:

Just wondering if anyone has found any new examples of a repeat cross reproducing an equal or better number of titled dogs than the first cross? Only looking at competition dogs with titles....not trying to compare pleasure dogs who are rated by personal opinions. I have been studying this for many years and continue to follow it and would appreciate any new cases of a repeat cross producing an equal or better number of nt.ch. or gr.nt.ch. dogs than the original cross. Thanks, shane

Posted by oklared on 07-25-2013 10:24 PM:

DOES DNA CHANGE 2ND AND THIRD TIME BREEDING?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-25-2013 10:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
DOES DNA CHANGE 2ND AND THIRD TIME BREEDING?

Nope....but color and other characteristics can change from litter to litter.
I have seen a cross between two redbones produce a few black pups and then when the exact same cross is made a second time....all pups are red. I have also seen whole litters of English which were redtick and when the exact cross is repeated....most are blue tick in color. So it leads
Me to wonder if the traits and characteristics from litter to litter can change just like color.

Posted by 54tsmith on 07-25-2013 10:35 PM:

lightnin x speed queen

1st cross 1 grand night. 2nd cross 3 nightech and counting will be aleast 2more as they have first place wins . i also have one off the third cross that will be titled after she turns 3 i,ll put her in the hunts. as you well know alot depends on the hands they are placed in. do not want this to turn into an arguement usually i dont coment but here is one case like you have asked for.

on a side note, i had a pup off the 4th cross that was the BEST YOUNG DOG i have ever had or seen. he was shot off a tree at 14 mo old.

__________________
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607-222-9444
Former HOME OF
GRNITECH, GRCH, TERRY,S OK RED TWISTIN SHERMAN
GRNITECH, CH , SMITH,S BANJO CAT
Home of grand night moonlight may

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-25-2013 10:42 PM:

I should be more clear....the dna of the parents does not change....every pup will have different DNA...even if they are from the same litter.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-25-2013 10:47 PM:

Re: lightnin x speed queen

quote:
Originally posted by 54tsmith
1st cross 1 grand night. 2nd cross 3 nightech and counting will be aleast 2more as they have first place wins . i also have one off the third cross that will be titled after she turns 3 i,ll put her in the hunts. as you well know alot depends on the hands they are placed in. do not want this to turn into an arguement usually i dont coment but here is one case like you have asked for.

on a side note, i had a pup off the 4th cross that was the BEST YOUNG DOG i have ever had or seen. he was shot off a tree at 14 mo old.

how many pups were in her 1st litter Todd? Originally I have been looking at only litters where the first cross produced at least 3 or more titled dogs....that way you can be sure that most of the litter probably got into the hands of competition hunters. Thanks for the info. I don't want anyone arguing on here either....this is just something I have been tracking for a long time now and that I find very interesting as a breeder.

Posted by 54tsmith on 07-25-2013 10:55 PM:

shane

i,ll have to check . i only know of three other than mine but should be more. i know one got ran over. another is in the hands of a pleasure hunter. second cross was a big litter and every dog i kept up with tree,s coon. this example may not fit your criteria.

__________________
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607-222-9444
Former HOME OF
GRNITECH, GRCH, TERRY,S OK RED TWISTIN SHERMAN
GRNITECH, CH , SMITH,S BANJO CAT
Home of grand night moonlight may

Posted by oklared on 07-26-2013 02:33 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Nope....but color and other characteristics can change from litter to litter.
I have seen a cross between two redbones produce a few black pups and then when the exact same cross is made a second time....all pups are red. I have also seen whole litters of English which were redtick and when the exact cross is repeated....most are blue tick in color. So it leads
Me to wonder if the traits and characteristics from litter to litter can change just like color.

THOSE GENES OR DNA OR WHAT EVER CONTROLS COLOR AND FISICAL THINGS SEEM TO BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT CONTROLS PERFORMANCE THINGS LIKE HUNTING AND RUNNING ETC.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-26-2013 09:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
THOSE GENES OR DNA OR WHAT EVER CONTROLS COLOR AND FISICAL THINGS SEEM TO BE DIFFERENT THAN WHAT CONTROLS PERFORMANCE THINGS LIKE HUNTING AND RUNNING ETC.

do you have an example based on facts....or are you just making an assumption? I am really not asking for everyone's opinions on what they "think" ......just actual cases based on the facts and certain criteria that I have listed. Every time this thread gets away from the facts.....and people start posting what they think or start guessing it leads to an argument. I am just trying to collect factual data using a specific set of criteria.....thanks, shane

Posted by oklared on 07-26-2013 03:39 PM:

A FACT, A FEMALE 7YRS OLDER (DOG YRS) CHANGES A LOT SO SECOND TIME SHE IS BRED MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE, THE 3RD TIME SHE'S 14 YRS OLDER. ETC. COULD THIS EFFECT WHAT SHE PRODUCES ?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-26-2013 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
A FACT, A FEMALE 7YRS OLDER (DOG YRS) CHANGES A LOT SO SECOND TIME SHE IS BRED MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE, THE 3RD TIME SHE'S 14 YRS OLDER. ETC. COULD THIS EFFECT WHAT SHE PRODUCES ?

do you have an example of an actual repeat cross that produced more titled dogs than the first cross which produced 3 or more titled dogs? That is all I am looking for....not looking for peoples opinions or assumptions on why they think repeat crosses do or don't produce as good....I can draw my own conclusions from the facts. Thanks, shane

Posted by oklared on 07-26-2013 05:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
do you have an example of an actual repeat cross that produced more titled dogs than the first cross which produced 3 or more titled dogs? That is all I am looking for....not looking for peoples opinions or assumptions on why they think repeat crosses do or don't produce as good....I can draw my own conclusions from the facts. Thanks, shane

FOR OBVIOUS REASONS I CANT PUT NAMES OR NUMBERS ON HERE BUT IF YOU ARE REALY INTERESTED IN BREEDING FACTS CALL ME AND I WILL PUT YOU IN TOUCH WITH A MAN THAT RAISED 1200 LITTERS OF PREFORMING RACING GREYHOUNDS, BEEN TO VET. SCHOOL, HAD THE LARGEST STUD FARM IN USA AT ONE TIME AND WOULD BE HAPPY I THINK TO GIVE YOU ALL THE ACTUAL FACTS THAT YOU ARE LOOKING FOR. THERE ARE TO MANY VARIBLES TO TRY TO DISCUS THIS SUBJECT ON HERE. I HAD A VERY INLIGHTING CONVERSATION WITH HIM AND HE TOLD ME SOMETHINGS I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT GENES AND OUT CROSSES AND LINE BREEDING AND INBREEDING THAT ALL FALLS INTO PLAY. HE HAS DOCUMENTATION AND WOULD SHARE, LET ME KNOW OTHERWISE IM DONE, DON

Posted by 54tsmith on 07-26-2013 08:16 PM:

question

Are there alot of litters around producing 3 or more titled dogs? And of these how many have been repeated? I know that there are many that do produce that but I didn't know it,s a regular occurrence. Please note I am not a successful breeder more do plan to be but like you I would like to know the answer to this .

__________________
TODD SMITH
607-222-9444
Former HOME OF
GRNITECH, GRCH, TERRY,S OK RED TWISTIN SHERMAN
GRNITECH, CH , SMITH,S BANJO CAT
Home of grand night moonlight may

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-26-2013 09:04 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Danny McCleskey
I thought the first litter from GrNiteCh Keys Outlaw Jessie & GrNiteCh Dawns Timber Jack produced GrNiteCh GrCh Keys Outlaw Moon and GrNiteCh Keys Outlaw Timber Girl and the second litter produced NiteCh Crafts Outlaw Jack and NiteCh Timber Shock. I also thought the first litter from GrNiteCh Keys Outlaw Jessie & GrNiteCh Amos Burning Ben produced GrNiteCh Outlaw Billy The Kid and GrNiteCh Keys Outlaw Jesse James and that the second litter produced GrNiteCh Stecklein Raddlin Kid and NiteCh Keys Outlaw Jessie II.

Danny you are correct. The way I worded it was a little confusing. When I was writing that out I was referring to the 1st male 2nd male and 3rd male she was bred to. The second male who was Timber Jack was bred to Jessie twice. The third male who was bred to Jessie was Ben and he was also bred to her twice. You are also correct on the names and titles of the dogs from each cross.
I guess the reason I didn't go into great detail on that is because the concern with the man who wrote to me was whether all litters from a female who produced a great 1st litter would be sub par even if they were from different males. I was trying to show that from what I have seen, the best crosses tend to come from the first time a particular male is bred to a female. I should have been more clear when iI wrote it out to avoid confusion.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-26-2013 09:38 PM:

Re: question

quote:
Originally posted by 54tsmith
Are there alot of litters around producing 3 or more titled dogs? And of these how many have been repeated? I know that there are many that do produce that but I didn't know it,s a regular occurrence. Please note I am not a successful breeder more do plan to be but like you I would like to know the answer to this .

Todd, the answer would be yes in some other breeds and not very often in the redbone breed. When I started studying this I looked at all breeds....especially walkers because it was very easy to find 1st time litters in that breed that produced several titled dogs. There are a few in the redbone breed that I can think of off the top of my head....Moonlight Kate x Lil Pepper being one. And the cross that Rabble Rouser was out of being another and then there are a few crosses out of Rabble who also produced multiple titled dogs in the first litter.
I can tell you that many top breeders in our breed and others will not repeat a cross no matter how successful it was. The cross that my breanna female is from produced 2 grand nite champions and was repeated twice after.....and the repeat crosses have only produced one other dog that I believe has a first and may have made nt.ch. but I can't remember seeing it. The reason I set the criteria of the first litter being 3-4 titled dogs it to make sure that the breeder was someone who got his pups to competition hunters. If he did with the first cross.....chances are if it was successful he also got the repeat litters in the hands of competition hunters.
I am not the first breeder to study this. John Wick wrote about this very thing in one of his books and he kept records of his own crosses for years and came to the same conclusion that other top breeders have who choose not to repeat Successful crosses.
Let me be clear that I am not saying that dogs from a repeat cross cannot be as good as those from a first time cross. They can and often are.....the phenomenon is that there are not as many in the repeat cross litters....if any. You may very well get one of the best from a repeat cross....but all the evidence seems to show that you won't get as many titled dogs from a repeat cross as the first cross produced. I am trying to find cases that prove this isn't the case....but so far there have been very, very few if any. I do expect to find some....but after studying so many repeat crosses over the years....I am fairly certain that from what I have seen one can be fairly certain that if you make a repeat cross, you stand about a 90% chance of getting fewer if any titled dogs from a repeat cross compared to the first cross.
Now I am sure there will be examples of first time litters who were small or many died or were never put in competition and yet the repeat cross larger and most went to competition hunters and they will beat the odds and have more titled dogs than the first cross....but that should be easy to see if there is enough info on the first cross as far as the number of pups and who they went to.
I am trying to figure out why this happens. I am not trying to argue with guys who make a lot of money selling pups from "proven" crosses. Everyone has their own opinion but these repeat crosses have been made many times in every breed for many years now and if there were many cases of repeat crosses producing equal to or more titled dogs than the first cross.....there should be way more instances of that than I am finding. I would say that in less than 5% of the repeat crosses that i have studied has there been a repeat cross that produced equal to or better than the first cross. To me that is pretty bad odds as a breeder and for that reason I will not make repeat crosses....no matter how much money the pups would bring. I am just trying to show the evidence of this phenominon and learn more about why it is and let others make up their own minds. Perhaps we may uncover a few crosses where this doesn't seem to apply....but I will bet they will be a very low % of all repeat crosses from what I have found so far.

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