UKC Forums - Repeat Crosses....how often do they work?

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Posted by 54tsmith on 07-26-2013 09:52 PM:

Shane

Thanks. I only ask because I only been at this 4 years and don't know. But i have some from repeated crosses so I have vested interests in this. So far I haven't seen a large diferance so for my sake I hope mine pan out. Good luck in your quest to figure this out. I won't bug you anymore. Todd

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-26-2013 10:02 PM:

I don't mean to discourage anyone with a dog out of a repeat cross. I just bred Bree to Rocky Top Jet who is from a repeat cross and I had him at my place and hunted him for over a month and he is one of the best redbones I have hunted with. Him and his brother The Red Rocker are both from a repeat cross and from all accounts they are both top dogs. So it doesn't mean that repeat crosses won't produce great dogs.....its just that the evidence that I have seen points to the odds being against there being as many as the first cross. I hope your dog and its litter mates become one of the cases that beats the odds....good luck!

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Posted by JJWI on 07-27-2013 05:48 PM:

I have been dealing with hounds for pretty close to 20 years now, and have dealt with dogs from second crosses by either owning one or watched one trained through out it's life. From Beagles, Bear dogs, Coon hounds to Bird dogs them most common item why the second crosses don't turn out are the people that get them.
Most often the case when the cross is made, everyone who takes a pup from that knows the lines being crossed or know the parents first hand and want to add that to their kennel. They get the pup started and put it in the timber and get it developed in to a let's say an above average hound. A lot of people see that dog and know what it's litter mates have done and they will see what they like and what they would like to see improved on it. They are not interested in getting a pup just like the previous ones, they want to improve on it, which results in breeding to a dog out of what they are hunting or have an idea of what line would cross well with this dog. Why have a dog just like the guy down the road, were you can try to strengthen its weaknesses and have something that may be better?
It would be interesting if you could look back and see who got pups from the first litter versus the second, and see how they were brought up and trained. More often than not, I have seen, the owners of the second litter have the mentality that "the first litter turned out, so this one should too" But these guys don't get the pups in the timber or work with them enough to give them a fair chance at making it. Too often when I had pups out of first cross and ran in to some one that had one from a second one, the answer I usually get when asked how the pup was doing is "I haven't had time to get them out yet" and a couple months down the road you hear how they had to cull it because it didn't turn out as good as expected. Well, a pup isn't going to learn anything sitting on a chain.
To get real results that you are seeking, you would have to either have a select group of people to raise and train both litters to get realistic results. Or raise and train both litters yourself and make your own evaluation on your findings.
I know you want to base your findings on the number of titled dogs in each litter to eliminate the dealing with an opinion. But I don't think titled dogs are going to give you an accurate results. Case in point, I am currently own and am working with a pup out of a second cross from a proven first cross. I believe total number of pups between the combined litters was 10. Out of those 10 pups, probably only 2 will be put in the hunts (if they turn out) and both are from that second litter. From what I have heard from the some of the owners of pups out of the first litter, the ones they have or know of would make it in the night hunts. For some reason be it health, family obligations or no interest in competition, the dogs don't get in the hunts. And these guys are very knowledgable houndsmen that have finished Night Champions and Grand Night Champions. So if my pup and the littermate female out of this second cross earn titles, does that make the second cross better than the first, even if the pups in that first litter were capable of earning titles also? Just way to many variables to draw a concrete conclusion to this question.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-27-2013 11:14 PM:

I also have been involved with hounds and breeding for a good number of years (since the late 80's) and you may be right about some 2nd crosses. But what about the truly famous crosses that produced a world champion or a phenomenal reproducer? When those crosses are repeated lots and lots of serious hunters pay big bucks and invest aa lot of time in training those pups......and most never are able to repeat the accomplishments or show the % of titled dogs that the first cross produced. Take one of the most famous and sought after walker studs of the past 20 years....stylish hickory nut harry for example.
The cross he is from produced more than 3 grand nite champions and was then repeated 4 or 5 more times and none of the repeat litters reproduced anywhere close to the % of top dogs as the first litter.....even though many of the top dog men in the country got one of those pups with hopes of it turning out to be the next "harry".
probably the most famous dog that came from one of those repeat crosses was stylish rebel who was from the fourth cross I believe.
So with so many repeat crosses with the same parents and so much interest and the pups going to the best trainers and dog men.....why did so few of those pups make anywhere near the accomplishments of those dogs from the first cross? I have seen this time and again from famous first time crosses .....especially ones who produced a world champion.
If the parents of a dog who is a big winner and who goes on to win a world championship are bred together for a repeat cross.....it is hard to believe that those pups would not get the attention of some of the best dog men out there who would like to have a chance at a dog of the caliber of that one that won the world hunt. Many times world champion crosses have been repeated over the years and almost never have they even come close to reproducing the results of the original cross.....why? The dna is the same.....so why are the pups not the same? How many times has a cross which reproduced a world champion been repeated and produced another dog who won a world championship???
The fact is....repeat crosses are not clones of the first cross anymore than one pup is a clone of its litter mates. I am not trying to argue that this is a fact.....the proof is more than evident if you study past repeat crosses......and want to see it for what it really is. I am looking for cases that ddon't seem to fit the norm that is glaringly apparent. If you know of a case like this please let me know....just make sure it is factual and I will be able to check it out and verify it. Thanks....Shane

Posted by JJWI on 07-28-2013 12:32 AM:

So what about the situation with the pup I currently have? If my pup finishes to a title, does that title make it a success when compared to the first litter?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-28-2013 01:37 AM:

I don't know what the first cross produced....but the criteria I have been using is to start with a first time cross that produced 3 or more titled dogs....so one dog from a repeat cross would not make it a success...in this study anyway. If the repeat cross produced more titled dogs than the first then it would be one of the few that has beat the odds. I have not seen anything to convinc8e me that the best dog of all crosses...first time or repeat cannot come from a repeat cross. But the odds are against repeat crosses producing a large number of great dogs that can win titles.

Posted by JJWI on 07-29-2013 03:28 PM:

Well, it sounds like you already have your mind made up on it and have your results the way you want to see it. So good luck with it.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-29-2013 06:48 PM:

I am looking for cases that are contrary to most that I have found so far over the years. I know there has to be some out there. The more cases .....the more accurate picture of why this seems to happen. Is it really because of who gets the pups from repeat crosses? Or is the reason something more.complicated?
When I used to hunt walkers I knew people who bought pups from repeat crosses....good dog men who gave them an honest chance. And those repeat cross pups just never made much....even though almost the entire first cross made coondogs and titled out.
I am trying to understand what happens in these cases and if it is a case of something not lining up in the pups.....or if it really is a difference in their environment. It really has baffled myself and others and its not from lack of trying to study it and figure out why it happens.
Anything that is counter intuitive is always going to cause a debate between those who believe and those who don't. I try to look at just the facts and only draw conclusions after enough data has been compared. I have seen enough data to convince me that more often than not repeat crosses do not seem to produce as many dogs that title out as do the first time crosses. I can't say that it is 100% of the time....I just don't know for sure.....but I would estimate it is about 90% or better. Thats why I am asking others for factual, verifiable cases to the contrary. For myself, I guess your right....I have seen enough to convince me that the odds are against 2nd crosses measuring up to first time crosses....but there have been some exceptional individual dogs that have come from 2nd crosses. So many people will probably continue to make them and hold up those rare examples as proof that repeat crosses work.....but do your homework and dig a little deeper and compare the whole repeat cross litter to the whole first cross litter before you jump on that band wagon. Good luck to everyone who is trying to better the redbone breed. There are some really great thinkers in our breed who are not afraid to think outside the box and trade unique and different (even unpopular) ideas in their attempt to better the redbone breed and that is exactly what we need. Lets keep our minds open and judge facts and not heresay....we need to get our breeding right! I believe we are inching closer and closer to where we want to be and if we can keep the momentum up we will reach the goals we have set for our breed

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 07-31-2013 05:58 AM:

I agree Danny. Wish we had the accurate numbers from each litter...but that is impressive and there surely had to be titled dogs from both litters.

Posted by ahallada on 07-31-2013 06:32 AM:

I remember having this same conversation with some bluetick breeders that included Dave Dean and his Hammer II dog. One of the breeders was mentioning this finding.

This is actually a very common finding in dogs, where the first cross produces superior offspring compared to future crosses on the same two dogs. I've always attributed this to laws of genetics that would weed out future crosses (survival of the fittest) to prevent the population from excessive inbreeding. There is definitely truth in this though and I noticed this on multiple females that we performed repeat breedings with Timber Jack.

Key's Jessie produced two titled dogs in the first litter and two in the second litter with TJ. The first litter produced Moon and Girl and the second litter produced my Shock dog and Pete Craft's Jack dog. Shock and Jack were good dogs, but I don't think they were the caliber of competition dog that Moon and Girl were. I also think Moon was built physically superior to either of these males as far as a stud dog goes. I can think of at least 4 females that were bred multiple times to TJ that had there best litter on the first litter.

I'm of the school that believes the first litter from a particular cross is the best one.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-05-2014 08:47 AM:

Re: Repeat Crosses....how often do they work?

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Lets take a closer, fact based look at repeat crosses and see if we can find evidence that they produce just as good of pups as first time crosses.
I have studied hundreds of these crosses over the years and I don't believe I have ever found a case where a repeat cross produced equal or a greater number of titled dogs than a first time cross.
Lets only talk about crosses that produced titled dogs....that way we keep personal opinions from clouding the facts. Lets talk about well known or widely known 1st time crosses that produced at least 2 or more titled dogs and then when the cross was repeated...the 2nd or 3rd time crosses produced equal, or more titled dogs than the first cross. I do not know of a single instance where this has been the case so I would sure love to see some proof of it.
My theory (which is the same as a few others and not original) is that repeat crosses do not reproduce as many great dogs as were seen in the first cross. Now, this is not to say that repeat crosses do not produce any great dogs or that those dogs are not just as good or better than those from the first cross....just that they are fewer...if any in repeat cross litters.
Lots of people make repeat"proven" crosses. After all....to a potential buyer....its should be a sure thing, right? But I would argue that the facts do not support this and if repeat crosses are just as good.....they should produce equal to or even more titled dogs than the first cross.....so lets see some proof....some hard facts, not guessing. Names of dogs we can check against records. I would love to be wrong on this....but I need to see proof....not opinions.
This is not a new topic.....repeat crosses have been made for 100 years so their should be plenty of proof from all breeds....so lets see some.
I am betting that if some cases are found.....they will be far outweighed by the number of times each year that repeat crosses are made.

Anyone come up with information about a repeat cross producing more titled dogs than a good proven first cross that produced at least 2 or more titled dogs?

Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-05-2014 01:33 PM:

Shane,

I tend to agree with you but I have found some litters that were as good or nearly as good. Unfortunately I kind of forgot about this post so I've lost a lot of my notes about it.

Here are two that you will find interesting I'm sure:

Nichols Tree Spike and N&E She's Mighty Molly were crossed twice. In the first litter there were 11 pups; 6 of those made Grand or Nite Champ. In the second litter she had 12; 4 of those titled. Not as good of numbers but in the second litter was a NITECH female named Lahti's Black Eyed Belle who is the mother of Main Street Jack who is a dominate reproducer in the English breed.

I'll admit this next one doesn't fully meet your criteria but it is interesting to note none the less. Wilcox' Thunder Tae Bo was crossed on Backyard Ladys Brandy twice. Litter one had 5 pups but only one titled. He just happened to be WLDNITECH GRNITECH PR Wilcox' Thunder Top Gun. In litter 2 there were 10 pups and 2 of those made Grand Nite including Backyard Limited Edition LE. In both litters 20% of the pups made Grand Nite. It's not a great percentage but both Top Gun and LE are good reproducers in their own right.

It is also interesting to me (and maybe no one else) that these two double-crosses were made fairly close together. I think Top Gun would have been about 14 months old when LE was born. Kind of makes a moot point of the thought that the second litter would go to more competition-minded hunters based on the accomplishments of litter 1. Now, this only applies in this situation where the crosses were made fairly close together. I agree with you that if a cross is made 3-4-5 years later the pups would be sold/placed based on the ability of the first litter.

Again, I tend to agree with you about the second cross not being as good as the first but there are examples of litters being fairly close together percentage wise. If I have time I'll look for my notes on this subject. I'm trying to learn more about breeding and genetics and this is an interesting subject to study.

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Posted by Rob Farr on 06-05-2014 03:56 PM:

Shane, I crossed Kate with Ace twice producing a total of 14 pups and 11 made Nite Champions and had some American Redbone Champions and US Redbone Champions out of these 2 crosses. Unfortunately I can't remember how many came from the first cross or second cross but both crosses produced several.

Posted by Paul Frederick on 06-05-2014 04:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rob Farr
Shane, I crossed Kate with Ace twice producing a total of 14 pups and 11 made Nite Champions and had some American Redbone Champions and US Redbone Champions out of these 2 crosses. Unfortunately I can't remember how many came from the first cross or second cross but both crosses produced several.

Here's the info for you Rob:

The first Ace X Kate litter produced 7 pups. 5 made NITECH.

Litter 2 produced 10 pups and 6 NITECH.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-05-2014 04:13 PM:

I bred Wendy to Moose and that cross was probably the best that I have ever made. A lot of people said that I was crazy not to breed her back to Moose again but I figured that the odds were against it so I bred her to Boone this time. We will see what happens with this litter. If this doesn't work I will probably breed her back to Moose.

Posted by mmarshall on 06-05-2014 05:25 PM:

Jmo if a cross works and you get a high % and your breeding for better every cross you make why repeat it ?
If i was you Richard breed her to several studs gives you lots of options down the road (all though your road is shorter then some )
Maybe its just me but I like to find out why it worked was it him/her or just a perfect match

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Posted by bjenks on 06-05-2014 06:04 PM:

2nd Cross

Shane, I have a female that I am putting a lot of time into right now that is from a 2nd cross. The gentlemen that made this cross made it 3 times. The first cross has produced 2 titled dogs so far, with no titles coming from the 2nd or 3rd crosses. I have had the priviledge of hunting with several dogs from all 3 crosses and I believe the 2nd cross was the most balanced and will ultimately end up producing the most titles. From what I have seen so far, there are more similarities between the 1st and 3rd crosses then were with the 2nd cross. This is only my opinion and I cant back it up with facts, but I believe by this time next year the 2nd cross will have produced more titled dogs then the 1st and 3rd crosses combined. The 2nd cross hasnt hit the 2 year mark yet and only a couple of these dogs have been introduced to the competition world so far.

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-05-2014 06:24 PM:

Thanks for posting and doing a little research on this Paul. I think the Ace x Kate cross is the closest example that I have seen. To a repeat cross producing as well or better than the first cross....very interesting.
I dont want people to misunderstand what this post is about. I am not and have never said that a second cross cannot produce good dogs.
However, my research has shown that in hundreds of repeat crosses that have been made where the first cross proved to be a good one where several from that litter titled......when those crosses were repeated....the number of titled dogs almost never comes close to equalling surpassing the number of the dogs who titled from the first cross.
This really is baffling because when a proven cross is repeated...historically people are standing in line to get one of these pups based on how well the first litter did....so the second cross should have as good or better chance of titling....but the facts do not support this.
I think now that this question has been raised people will watch this subject closely and some who disagree will try very hard to disprove it...but with so few cases (almost none across all breeds) of a second cross equalling or bettering a first time cross in terms of titled dogs.....what will that really prove?
As I said from the beginning....there probably are a few cases out there that have managed to beat the odds....but as long as the odds appear to be 99% against it ( from the nearly 150 repeat crosses I have studied)......I, personally will not be making any repeat crosses. To me, if a female hits a home run with a certain male and produces a truly great litter of dogs...then the odds are way better that she can produce another truly great litter with a different male than the one she was bred to the first time.
Now I dont blame anyone for trying to repeat the success of a great first time cross...and if you have done so I would like to hear about it and keep track of how it turns out for you. Who knows...maybe you will be one of the Lucky breeders to beat the odds like Mr. Farr did with the Ace x Kate cross.....shane

Posted by Rob Farr on 06-05-2014 06:38 PM:

Paul, I sent you a pm.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 06-06-2014 01:43 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
(all though your road is shorter then some )

Where is a moderator???? Look at what I have to put up with....

Posted by timber hunter on 06-06-2014 02:58 AM:

Is it ok

to say I disagree!!!!!

Posted by oklared on 06-06-2014 05:29 AM:

HOW MUCH OLDER NORMALY IS THE FEMALE THE SECOND GO ARROUND THAN THE FIRST, HOW OLD WAS SHE THE FIRST TIME

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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-06-2014 08:08 AM:

Re: Is it ok

quote:
Originally posted by timber hunter
to say I disagree!!!!!

Sure...anyone can disagree...but do you mind saying why ?
Is there an example of a repeat cross that you know about that fits the criteria that has convinced you that the evidence I have accumulated may be wrong? If so I sure would like to here about it. Thats why started this thread....to gather information.....thanks

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 06-06-2014 08:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
HOW MUCH OLDER NORMALY IS THE FEMALE THE SECOND GO ARROUND THAN THE FIRST, HOW OLD WAS SHE THE FIRST TIME

I have seen no evidence that the age of the female has any bearing on repeat crosses not producing as good...or on good reproducing females being able to produce outstanding litters from different males right up till they are too old to reproduce.
Just look at Kate and Pepper Ann....they reproduced titled dogs from every litter right up till they died in Kate's case and Pepper Ann is over 10 I believe.
I have seen many repeat crosses made only 6 months apart when the mother was young and the first cross was great ....repeat cross was mostly duds....

Posted by jkhutch on 06-06-2014 12:14 PM:

Maybe it's not the quality of dogs produced on the second litter that is the problem. Maybe it's the hand or handlers they are put in. Since we are baseing these numbers off of "titled dogs" and not quality of dogs. Maybe we should be looking at where these dogs were placed from first to second litter, typically it seems to me that people themselves would take for interest in the first litter than the second just because, of the excitement of it. So if the pups from second litter were placed in the sames hands as the first and given the same oppertunity would there really be a difference???

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