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-- Was asked the other day this question?? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928557538)

Was asked the other day this question??

"IF" the bench show standards are suppose to produce a better "hunting" hound than, Why in 40 years of World Show Champions (1985-2024) only 2 have a hunting degree?

It was brought up that most shows always have a nite hunt to also enter to get a nite hunt degree and I couldn't give a good answer to their question. So if anyone would let me know, I'll pass it on.

Thanks

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OLD TIMER

Just from what I have witnessed at the local level. A lot of the show dogs are older people that can’t physically hunt anymore so they just show their dog to still be part of the club and in the coon hunting world. So they just show and BS with others at the club.

The big hunts is a little different those dogs are groomed/bred to be show dogs. You’ll never know but I’m sure those dogs can win in the hunts as well but just pushed in a different aspect of the sport.

I think the standards are put in place for each breed to just keep all the crazy cross bred stuff out that don’t conform. The bench shows keep that standard and it’s expected to cross over to the hunting stock, not so much be a pretty show dog and a big winner in the hunts as well. But I’m sure it’s possible.

Winning the world hunt or the world bench show is not an easy task. The chance of one dog winning both in the same year would be pretty slim.

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Donald Bergeron

Thank you to who ever you are—

Not sure if this is the correct reason but had someone point out some very interesting points. They said to look at the pictures of the 3 hounds competing in the final cast and the pictures of the 2 show winners. So I did. They said to notice how the legs and feet were on all. They said they had some veterinarian background and that a hound with straight legs from the pad to the shoulder would not be able to take hard hunting/running because of the strain it buts on the shoulder and joints?? They also said that the foot is were speed comes from and the fastest cat, Cheetah, doesn’t even have a cat foot?? So, I’m not a vet but have had a few hounds in 69 years and have to
admit that those are good points

Thank you

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OLD TIMER

I had grand show champion that was hunted as hard as any dog could be hunted 7 nights a week on and on and it didn't bother his legs or feet. But he could have been the exception to the rule. I don't know I'm not a vet.either. one was a B&T and the other one was a Walker.

In over 100 years of baseball how many pitchers have won a batting title? You can't be great at everything.

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Donald Bergeron

Gus Weyhing won it with a .341 average, BUT

I was just talking about entering a hunt and getting a Nite Ch title. Never expected them to win the World-TOC-or Oaks.

The question I was asked was why no hunt titles is all, and I didn’t have an answer so was just asking.

I guess you could say that most Batting Title winners are decent baseball players

But then I see the top 15 in the World Hunt have no Show degrees. Maybe there is something there??

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OLD TIMER

There are a hand full of people out there that do hunt what they show. The people that show what they hunt pretty much don't exist anymore. I think partly because you use to go to a local hunt a little early and the BS cost $5 to $10 so why not. Now it's $15 to $20 and you might have a few big name show dogs there chasing points. That and people don't show up till the last minute these days. Now here's where things get controversial. I will speak for my breed ( black and Tans). For years people have gotten on the B&T board to change the breed standards based on there version of what a B&T "should" look like. Not based on what aids there abilities to track and tree a coon. I know this from experience wearing out countless pairs of boots. That having a white patch on there chest bigger than a dime don't in fact prohibit a dog from treeing a coon. Same goes for dew claws!!!! What I do know is that the dogs with tiny cat feet can't hold up to night after night in the woods, and don't expect to hunt them in hard crusty snow. It turns into a bloody mess. There feet punch through the ice. Well padded feet on the other hand is a must other wise all those small cuts and nicks on a dogs pad turn into a laid up dog. Years ago it got so bad about the arguing on breed standards that a well known group started the med ear B&T assc.

With all that being said dogs do brake down if they are not put together right. You will see shoulder issues with dogs that have elbows that pitch outward. If there back legs are not angled right they blow out knees. ( check out boxers and Labs they do it a lot). We just my not notice as much because the dogs being pushed are only hunted a few years and they have moved to the next new thing. Lets be honest these days tick illness is taking dogs out of the game before there body falls apart.

quote:

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Originally posted by TN Quick Check
There are a hand full of people out there that do hunt what they show. The people that show what they hunt pretty much don't exist anymore. I think partly because you use to go to a local hunt a little early and the BS cost $5 to $10 so why not. Now it's $15 to $20 and you might have a few big name show dogs there chasing points. That and people don't show up till the last minute these days. Now here's where things get controversial. I will speak for my breed ( black and Tans). For years people have gotten on the B&T board to change the breed standards based on there version of what a B&T "should" look like. Not based on what aids there abilities to track and tree a coon. I know this from experience wearing out countless pairs of boots. That having a white patch on there chest bigger than a dime don't in fact prohibit a dog from treeing a coon. Same goes for dew claws!!!! What I do know is that the dogs with tiny cat feet can't hold up to night after night in the woods, and don't expect to hunt them in hard crusty snow. It turns into a bloody mess. There feet punch through the ice. Well padded feet on the other hand is a must other wise all those small cuts and nicks on a dogs pad turn into a laid up dog. Years ago it got so bad about the arguing on breed standards that a well known group started the med ear B&T assc.

With all that being said dogs do brake down if they are not put together right. You will see shoulder issues with dogs that have elbows that pitch outward. If there back legs are not angled right they blow out knees. ( check out boxers and Labs they do it a lot). We just my not notice as much because the dogs being pushed are only hunted a few years and they have moved to the next new thing. Lets be honest these days tick illness is taking dogs out of the game before there body falls apart.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

This subject is something I often wonder about. I have seen many good coonhounds that win/won a good bit and are not anywhere near a correct build some wouldn’t even meet “breed standards” . Then on the other hand you see all these beautiful well built hounds at a major show that could barely tree a coon if at all. I ask myself “what good does it do to have a well built coonhound that can live a long healthy life and physically hold up if it has no ability to do what the breed was developed to do?” It my search to find the answer in my own mind I decided it’s more about the drive and desire inside a dog then it is the physical build of one.I have seen plenty of small flat footed , cow hocked dogs with sorry a top line , high set ears and dew claws that treed the fire out of coons with great speed and accuracy for many years and late into life. Why? Because they had the desire to do it. They very well may have been sore and broke down at times, but the disire to do it overcame the physical structure limits they were born with. In conclusion ask yourself , Who is really preserving the breeds of coonhounds the best, breeders breeding for a standard or breeders that produce a dog with desire ?

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Get deep or Get Beat!

Natural hunting ability is top on my list…but a dog that has the hunt and looks to go with it is a pleasure to hunt…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...