UKC Forums - How long before you make the call

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Posted by trevor0432 on 09-08-2024 10:51 PM:

How long before you make the call

I have an English male that just turned 15 months old. Hunts like crazy, opposite direction from the other dog, but will not say a word. He shows zero interest in a cage coon, will follow the track when I turn it loose but not say a word. Mingles around the tree it went up but nothing. He is driving me crazy. Should I just keep pushing him or when would you make the call to get rid of him?

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Posted by MOcoondogs on 09-09-2024 12:23 AM:

It's absolutely an individual call you have to make based on your personal situation. If you are busy, can afford a different dog, or you're just getting interested in hunting, you may want to give up sooner than later. If you are becoming frustrated to the point that you are not "helpful" to the dog then you should stop pushing him. I have seen dogs nearly 3 years old come out of this and be fine coonhounds, I have heard of others older than that (from reliable sources). But I wouldn't ever say all of them will. Best of luck!

Posted by Drafts on 09-09-2024 03:48 AM:

Have you showed him any other game?
He obviously has some tracking ability if he will follow to the tree and hang around the tree some.
How long have you had the dog?
Does he bark in the pen for any reason or bark at anything else period?

Posted by trevor0432 on 09-09-2024 01:08 PM:

Had him since he was 9 weeks. He is very mouthy around the house wether it's feed time or not.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-09-2024 01:21 PM:

Totally up to you, but here is the deal, you got a minimal amount of time in your life. You can spend it with a dog that makes you excited to go hunting or keep one around that you have to ask people if you should give up on. For me its a no brainer. I can't take a kennel barker let alone a kennel barker that can't tree a coon at 15 months old.

When I start a pup I keep written track of what is actually going on. I usually set a limit for myself....very few dogs make it to the limit because I have had enough before that time comes. I am really not that much into standing around in the dark listening to dogs bark up trees anymore. A dog better make it at least tolerable pretty quick for me to keep buying $40 a bag food and spending $4 gas hauling it around.

My guess is when you find a dog that really does a nice job for you, you will look back on this and wonder why you wasted so much time on this one. Good luck though.

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Posted by Drafts on 09-09-2024 03:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by trevor0432
Had him since he was 9 weeks. He is very mouthy around the house wether it's feed time or not.

Personally here is what I would do:
If you love the dog and really want to try to make him work, I would show him a caged squirrel, or cat, or something else and just see if that peaks his interest. If he opens on it on the ground pull it up a tree and see if he will tree on it. If he trees on it, praise him for it and you have now taken a step forward.
If he does the same with any other caged game as he does a coon, I would give him to a good home that hog hunts or dog drives for deer or possibly even a bear hunter might would try him. He may be really good at baying game and not a tree bone in his body. That is what you have got to find out first.
Some folks will encourage their pups to bark “up” at their food at a very young age to encourage treeing/speaking for what they want.
You might could try that too, although sounds like you’ve already got him mouthy enough at home.
Just my opinion

Posted by Dave Richards on 09-09-2024 09:49 PM:

Dog

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
Totally up to you, but here is the deal, you got a minimal amount of time in your life. You can spend it with a dog that makes you excited to go hunting or keep one around that you have to ask people if you should give up on. For me its a no brainer. I can't take a kennel barker let alone a kennel barker that can't tree a coon at 15 months old.

When I start a pup I keep written track of what is actually going on. I usually set a limit for myself....very few dogs make it to the limit because I have had enough before that time comes. I am really not that much into standing around in the dark listening to dogs bark up trees anymore. A dog better make it at least tolerable pretty quick for me to keep buying $40 a bag food and spending $4 gas hauling it around.

My guess is when you find a dog that really does a nice job for you, you will look back on this and wonder why you wasted so much time on this one. Good luck though.

Ron, I have read a lot of posts on this Forum and this is the best advice one could possibly give in this situation. I learned this early in my coon hunting life. NEVER waste time on a dud or dog that does not make you enjoy hunting with it.Cut your loss and look for one that will at least make you enjoy coon hunting. I see a bunch of at least decent dogs these days, unlike the early years, so there is zero need to hang on to any dog that age that will not tree. Dave

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Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-10-2024 12:43 AM:

Thanks Dave.

I'm not expert, but I've raised a few. I think I give any dog I've had a very fair chance. When a dog has any ability at all it can and should tree an easy coon easily. We have all had those ones we make excuses for for a while...but we're just fooling ourselves. The longer it takes a young dog to even be tolerable to hunt the lower the chances it will ever be what your looking for. After some experience you start to see things in dogs that make you get a good or bad feeling.

Give them all a fair chance, but don't blame yourself or be afraid to move on once you have done so. Its your money and your time..but I don't have enough of either to waste it on a hound that won't work with me.

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CROOKED FOOT KENNELS

Posted by Bill(Chew) on 09-10-2024 03:47 PM:

Unless you have tried it already, I would turn a coon loose in deep grass or low brush and let the dog loose just before it gets out of sight. The point is to have the dog catch up to the coon before it can tree. If that doesn't flip the switch then other responses have great advice.

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Posted by critter on 09-10-2024 06:24 PM:

Re: Dog

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Ron, I have read a lot of posts on this Forum and this is the best advice one could possibly give in this situation. I learned this early in my coon hunting life. NEVER waste time on a dud or dog that does not make you enjoy hunting with it.Cut your loss and look for one that will at least make you enjoy coon hunting. I see a bunch of at least decent dogs these days, unlike the early years, so there is zero need to hang on to any dog that age that will not tree. Dave

I totally agree with you and Ron.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 09-10-2024 07:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by trevor0432
Had him since he was 9 weeks. He is very mouthy around the house wether it's feed time or not.

Is he wearing a no bark collar or has he been shocked while in the pen for barking? If so does your tracking collar have prongs for shocking capabilities? Sometimes if pups have been shocked around the house for barking and if they are wearing a collar while hunting that has prongs they associate that with "If I bark I will get shocked." Some don't know the difference in the two situations that it's okay to bark while hunting and not okay at home.

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Posted by Reuben on 09-10-2024 07:58 PM:

Re: Re: Dog

quote:
Originally posted by critter
I totally agree with you and Ron.

I agree as well…

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Posted by ScottCK 6 on 09-11-2024 12:02 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Is he wearing a no bark collar or has he been shocked while in the pen for barking? If so does your tracking collar have prongs for shocking capabilities? Sometimes if pups have been shocked around the house for barking and if they are wearing a collar while hunting that has prongs they associate that with "If I bark I will get shocked." Some don't know the difference in the two situations that it's okay to bark while hunting and not okay at home.

Good Answer!

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Posted by KEVIN MOSES on 09-11-2024 03:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Is he wearing a no bark collar or has he been shocked while in the pen for barking? If so does your tracking collar have prongs for shocking capabilities? Sometimes if pups have been shocked around the house for barking and if they are wearing a collar while hunting that has prongs they associate that with "If I bark I will get shocked." Some don't know the difference in the two situations that it's okay to bark while hunting and not okay at home.

This happens. A buddy of mine bought a young dog from a guy one time. This guy had treed quite a few coons by himself. We hunted the dog several times and he would run track some but would not tree at all. It didn't make any sense. We treed quite a few coon and dog would not tree. I told him one night to take shocking collar off that dog and put a regular collar on. That dog treed two coon the next two drops and never missed a lick from then on. He could tree any kind of coon, went on to make pkc ch, ukc nite ch and qualified for world hunt. Its like you flipped a switch.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 09-11-2024 08:50 PM:

Dog

No where in his post does the OP say that the dog has ever had a bark collar or shock collar used on this dog. A bark or shock collar would change the situation only if they were used on this dog. OP does say dog is mouthy around the house, but NEVER indicated any attempt to correct this behavior. The advice was based on what info was given, not trying to infer something NOT discussed. The fact he worked this dog on a cage coon and a turn loose coon with no productive results or interest from the dog, shows little hope for this dog. Some like to say he may just be a late starter, he may be or he may just be a dud. In this day of early starting pups with many pups treeing their own coon at a early age, it's a waste of time to spend on a 15 month old dog that shows no interest in treeing coon. Dave

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Posted by buff1978 on 09-11-2024 09:42 PM:

Dave

This post reminds of the lee logan podcast where he talks about logans Jeannie or Julie can't remember which one for sure.but he had sent her to guy to hunt he had shot over 100 coon out to that dog and she wouldn't track or tree.he got her back and gave her to friend to try and get her treeing.offered him 100.00 if he got her treeing.well the guy got her treeing by hanging a caged coon in a 1 stall garage above her feed and water pan.well she turned out to be a hell of a dog and reproducer.she was the last pup out of 1 of his old dogs and didn't want to give up on her.

Posted by ScottCK 6 on 09-11-2024 09:44 PM:

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Posted by Drafts on 09-11-2024 11:05 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Is he wearing a no bark collar or has he been shocked while in the pen for barking? If so does your tracking collar have prongs for shocking capabilities? Sometimes if pups have been shocked around the house for barking and if they are wearing a collar while hunting that has prongs they associate that with "If I bark I will get shocked." Some don't know the difference in the two situations that it's okay to bark while hunting and not okay at home.

Absolutely right. I have had this happen to me before. I don’t use bark collars at all anymore. I have also learned that a bark collar is a sorry excuse for obedience in a dog. If a dog doesn’t have enough sense when I holler HUSH! And spray him/her with the water hose a few times, they will not stay at my house!

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 09-13-2024 07:49 AM:

Re: Dog

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
No where in his post does the OP say that the dog has ever had a bark collar or shock collar used on this dog. A bark or shock collar would change the situation only if they were used on this dog. OP does say dog is mouthy around the house, but NEVER indicated any attempt to correct this behavior. The advice was based on what info was given, not trying to infer something NOT discussed. The fact he worked this dog on a cage coon and a turn loose coon with no productive results or interest from the dog, shows little hope for this dog. Some like to say he may just be a late starter, he may be or he may just be a dud. In this day of early starting pups with many pups treeing their own coon at a early age, it's a waste of time to spend on a 15 month old dog that shows no interest in treeing coon. Dave

And I asked if the dog had worn a no bark collar or been shocked for barking and is it wearing a collar with prongs now, a question that was never answered, that absolutely can cause some to not want to tree.

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 09-13-2024 05:14 PM:

Over the course of time there is a continuum in the coonhunting world. On one extreme there are those that think if a pup isn't doing it right at 6 months old it's a dud. On the other side you have those that feel that as long as the dog can turn O2 to Co2 there is hope. Most of us fall in the middle.

Where i live there are a lot of coon and pretty easy hunting. Treeing a coon is just not that hard. For a while you can blame it on weather, lack of coon, late starter, ect....and as the price of pups skyrockets more people jump through more hoops to get their investment to work out.

We all want to feel like pups should work out and at times we feel like if WE had them, not the person having issues, they would....just not true. Bottom line is the % of pups that work out is small. The great trainers best trait is that that know what they see and correctly evaluate potential. They don't waste time doing every trick in the book to get a dog to do what it needs natural instinct to do. It's a harsh reality...but its the reality of the game.

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Posted by Dave Richards on 09-13-2024 09:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Ashbaugh
Over the course of time there is a continuum in the coonhunting world. On one extreme there are those that think if a pup isn't doing it right at 6 months old it's a dud. On the other side you have those that feel that as long as the dog can turn O2 to Co2 there is hope. Most of us fall in the middle.

Where i live there are a lot of coon and pretty easy hunting. Treeing a coon is just not that hard. For a while you can blame it on weather, lack of coon, late starter, ect....and as the price of pups skyrockets more people jump through more hoops to get their investment to work out.

We all want to feel like pups should work out and at times we feel like if WE had them, not the person having issues, they would....just not true. Bottom line is the % of pups that work out is small. The great trainers best trait is that that know what they see and correctly evaluate potential. They don't waste time doing every trick in the book to get a dog to do what it needs natural instinct to do. It's a harsh reality...but its the reality of the game.

Ron, I agree 100 percent with this post. Time is something you can not get back, so why waste it on a long shot. Having a dog that makes you want to coon hunt is the name of the game, or at least it is for me. I refuse to waste time on a dog that shows no interest in treeing coons. I coon hunt to tree coons and there are many dogs available that will tree coons. Holding out for a late starter or dud is a waste of time. Put your money and time in a dogs that actually trees coons and should get better over time. Dave

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Posted by Drafts on 09-15-2024 08:03 PM:

Re: How long before you make the call

quote:
Originally posted by trevor0432
I have an English male that just turned 15 months old. Hunts like crazy, opposite direction from the other dog, but will not say a word. He shows zero interest in a cage coon, will follow the track when I turn it loose but not say a word. Mingles around the tree it went up but nothing. He is driving me crazy. Should I just keep pushing him or when would you make the call to get rid of him?

What did you find out with your dog?
Any luck?

Posted by trevor0432 on 09-16-2024 04:56 PM:

Re: Re: How long before you make the call

quote:
Originally posted by Drafts
What did you find out with your dog?
Any luck?

I have seen some idea I am going to try. I was talking to a dog man here in PA and he said to trap one and leave it sit next to him. He had one that was the same way, he caught one and just let it sit by the dog and he started baying it and turned on. If it doesn't work he will be for sale for someone to try to train on another critter

Posted by Drafts on 09-16-2024 05:01 PM:

Re: Re: Re: How long before you make the call

quote:
Originally posted by trevor0432
I have seen some idea I am going to try. I was talking to a dog man here in PA and he said to trap one and leave it sit next to him. He had one that was the same way, he caught one and just let it sit by the dog and he started baying it and turned on. If it doesn't work he will be for sale for someone to try to train on another critter

Keep us posted on what happens with him. I am curious to know how that works for you. Best of luck!

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