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Trash Running Question

I have to admit for the last 40 years I have been blessed. I have had several dogs that never ran any trash, and the most of the others were fairly easy to break. My last two, a mother and daughter, were broke on level 3 and 4 on my Garmin respectively.

I find my self in new territory. My current female will cold trail deer a long ways before jumping it. I don't have a problem knowing it is trash after it is jumped. I had a buddy asked me why don't I check the speed she is running on the Garmin. I said I rarely use the Garmin for anything other than tracking. I'm not a gadget guy. According to my sons, it is because I'm old.

Anyway, I don't have a clue as to what speed would indicate a potential trash issue. Does anyone have any experience with typical track speeds? I did check out her track speed in the middle of a track last night, and it was 11-12 mph. Isn't track speed on a Garmin an average?

Yes, while it is still the rut, my whole focus is switching to trash breaking. I'm not so sure the way I have done it in the past is going to work as well this time. I'm open to all suggestions. I do have an extensive library of training books and I will be revisiting them.

If coon dogs were boring, I probably wouldn't still be hunting them.lol

Thanks for any info.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

My opinion

Mr. Atherton,
Sounds like you have had pretty good luck like myself. I will say this, and it is my opinion, but no way I would correct a dog basing it off of their track speed. Too many times I have heard people accusing their or my dogs of running trash and actually come to find out they were running desired game.
I have corrected a dog before based off of speed, distance, or sound when I was actually the one that needed correcting.
I ONLY correct a dog if I have visually verified that they are in fact running off game.
How old is the female you are training now?

Has anyone broken a dog from running deer by shocking them just once? Do you think that you can break a dog from running coon by shocking them just once or twice by mistake?
If you zoom in and watch your Garmin closely, you should be able to tell the difference between trailing and running. Old timers used to be able to tell by their hounds bark/mouth if they were trailing a coon or running a deer. Youngsters today use their Garmin. You can also use map quest. Coons travel in timber. Deer run tree lines, fields and trails/roads.

It's crazy to think someone would check the speed to decide weather to correct a dog or not. It certainly isn't something I would recommend.

Track speed ......I use it all the time ...yes it is an average ......also use track time ....
Dog(s) that are consistent with both ,having a coon treed, (and not just getting treed) are most enjoyable to hunt .....these hour hunts are tailored for such dog(s)
8 to 11 mph w/ a treed coon in 8 min. or less , that's been my experience on average.
Anything longer is suspect for me and what I hunt.
Mind u if coons ain't moving ur average will be longer for that hunt (night), each night brings its own differences, u have to recognize those difference and adjust accordingly.
What I look for in track speed & track time is consistency, u can really get to know your dog(s) M.O.

A good check dog is the best way to know, if you can find a dog that will run with another dog.

__________________
Donald Bergeron

Thanks guys for the answers. My problem is she is cold trailing the deer track. I can absolutely tell she is running a deer after she jumps it. I was just curious about what my buddy said about checking the track speed on the Garmin.

__________________
Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Cold trailing deer is a new one but maybe you can modify a method I use for hot jumped deer. If you hunt enough you tend to notice when and where deer tend to hang out. This summer I got ticked at my dog for running deer so I drove to where I knew I would see a deer standing in front of a woods. I used the thermal and watched the deer as I made some noise to get the deer to move off into the woods. I waited just a bit and then cut the dog in the direction that the deer was standing when I pulled up. I watched the dog on the thermal once he opened and shot across the field in the same tracks the deer took for a good 50 to 100 yrds I corrected him. I caught him up then took him to a spot where I knew he could tree an easy coon fast. I loved him up showed him that's what I want. Then set him up on a deer again same way as the 1st time. Then back to an easy coon. Come the third deer set up he turned ran away from the deer into the woods and found a coon. You could try this, maybe set longer after the deer walks off and let the sent die down before you cut across the track. I normally don't like setting a dog up for failure but the deer running was turning into a big issue. I don't like to correct a dog unless I can see for certain what there are doing. Good Luck

Cold trailing deer in "Michigan"....🤔 hmmmmmmm .

Speed

Not a lot of trees around me. Dog struck, went 500 yards into a sunflower field, circled back out to the road, thru a culvert .
Burned that track up.8 miles across a short grass cow pasture like a deer chase and trees that running coon in a small stand of saplings.
Similar tracks have shown me, do not push that button !

quote:

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Originally posted by TN Quick Check
Cold trailing deer is a new one but maybe you can modify a method I use for hot jumped deer. If you hunt enough you tend to notice when and where deer tend to hang out. This summer I got ticked at my dog for running deer so I drove to where I knew I would see a deer standing in front of a woods. I used the thermal and watched the deer as I made some noise to get the deer to move off into the woods. I waited just a bit and then cut the dog in the direction that the deer was standing when I pulled up. I watched the dog on the thermal once he opened and shot across the field in the same tracks the deer took for a good 50 to 100 yrds I corrected him. I caught him up then took him to a spot where I knew he could tree an easy coon fast. I loved him up showed him that's what I want. Then set him up on a deer again same way as the 1st time. Then back to an easy coon. Come the third deer set up he turned ran away from the deer into the woods and found a coon. You could try this, maybe set longer after the deer walks off and let the sent die down before you cut across the track. I normally don't like setting a dog up for failure but the deer running was turning into a big issue. I don't like to correct a dog unless I can see for certain what there are doing. Good Luck

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__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
Before Garmin I used a shock collar and exactly as you described…I usually would take 3 or 4 pups with me on account I needed them in the woods…so it was a slow process when the pups extremely gamey and want to run and catch game…the only off game I worried about was running deer because these pups would run one a few hours if allowed …
I came up with a new plan and it has worked 100 percent of the time…
Once the pups know what game is acceptable to hunt I break them off of deer in the kennel with a cattle prod, deer scent on a rolled white paper towel tied to the end of a stick…I made sure the alpha pup was first to experience the training…and I made sure they were down wind so they knew for sure it was deer in the mist…
3 exercises each in two weeks and they were broke off of deer…within a few minutes they were all deathly afraid of a deer even in the first training session…

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I had more problems trying to break them in the woods and it was frustrating on account I was doing my best to not ruin on set back the pups…

The cattle prod solved my problems…about three quick sessions in a two week period and they were broke…maybe one more session a month or two later as a refresher and it was done…they were deathly afraid of that white deer flag that hurt really bad when it touched them…I just made sure it was good enough for them to never forget…3 taps on the first session…the second session 2 taps but chased them a little bit to let them know the deer flag was aggressive…the third session was one light tap but they would be trying to come out of the kennel…you have to make a statement…

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Interesting, I had thought about a setup like that in the past for possum as well.

When Cheyenne is needs to break one from running deer (most break themselves) it is a controlled set up situation where they are literally turned loose where deer are present and the corrected while in the act.
Our dogs run in the double digits quite often so track speed would never be an indication of whether or not they were running fast game. You can often tell on some by differences in the amount they open on track or patterns a pup may run in but setting up in a controlled way us still the best way to break one.

__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

quote:

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Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
When Cheyenne is needs to break one from running deer (most break themselves) it is a controlled set up situation where they are literally turned loose where deer are present and the corrected while in the act.
Our dogs run in the double digits quite often so track speed would never be an indication of whether or not they were running fast game. You can often tell on some by differences in the amount they open on track or patterns a pup may run in but setting up in a controlled way us still the best way to break one.

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__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
This is my preferred way to break a pup…I have written of this way in the past…and I will always add to make sure the pup knows the preferred game and also knows the woods is a fun place…the reason I say that is because a friend of mine ruined a good pup. He figured breaking the pup off deer as the first thing to do…well he had the opportunity to cast the pup into where he could see deer…and really lit the pup up once he got after the deer…after the second set up that pup was to scared to cast in the woods…he didn’t want to run anything after that…

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__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER