UKC Forums - Lets talk some breeding

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Posted by mmarshall on 02-01-2013 05:39 PM:

Lets talk some breeding

I know that the fastball method is a very popular one being used by several and has worked very well with one of the lines I like to hunt
What's some other ideas some have besides coondogs to coondogs that I hope is a given
Richard and Kelly your favorite topic
Let see if we can do this with out bashing men or dogs
And this thread is not intended to set any one up for a attack or any hidden message to get under someone's skin witch seems to be a popular thing to do on here

__________________
mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Posted by Sawblade on 02-01-2013 07:49 PM:

always a good topic.

I have stayed away from this topic for a couple years now, ever since the "fastball" was brought up and I bought old "UNO".There are several methods I've tried and some I continue to use with limited success. I'll list the different ways to determine a cross I know of.
1. Ability to Ability ..requires nothing but two good dogs.
2.Inbreeding...Producing a litter with pups having over 50% genetic material from one dog.
3.Linebreeding...most popular, selective breeding using pedigree and ability to line up traits while also staying in a familiy.
4.ready to handy.. breed to the dog down the road cause your stationwagon has a flat and you need some money from selling pups to buy diapers.
5.Winner to winner...nothing more than #1. but dogs are owned by competition hunters and have "Proven" their ability.
6. The 1,2,3,4,5 method...combination of any or all of the above methods.
7.Supercross... secret way of breeding dogs that only folks in the "clique" know about. ..sorry Mark ,I just couldn't resist. Supercrossing is what I call it and it is a combination of #1, #3 and # 5, while also using reproducing records to only select the best reproduction crosses the breed has seen to pick the sire and dams.
I think 1 thru 6 most folks got down and use one way or another. I been trying to use Supercrossing for a few years now and I have to say from what is on the ground now I probably will never get too far away from it.
It is alot harder to explain but pretty easy to do. If anyone wants to hear about it just say so and I'll post again.

my pick is #7 as the best method.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by Chad Byrd on 02-01-2013 08:10 PM:

What about #8
#8 the crisscross = where you add in a little of something else. LOL just playing

__________________
Calhoun GA.
(765) 427 7585

WELL BLENDED KENNELS

Greatly Missed

NTCH SHCH BWC's Coon Fetchin Gretchin (T-Rex X
Daisey)

My only goal in life is to be the kind of person my dog thinks i am ! (Jeff Foxworthy)

Posted by Sawblade on 02-01-2013 08:28 PM:

outcross

I forgot the outcross and crossbred. Thanks Chad,add a few more.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-01-2013 08:41 PM:

I too like #7 but I don't think that it is all that easy. You can't just breed papers. You have to pick the best example out of a litter and breed it the best example out of a litter. In other words you have to pick 2 very good relatives who are comp winners. You then have to pick the best example/winner out of this cross and breed it to the best example out of a similar cross. Then you have to do that again. It can be very time consuming and difficult to do. One person can not accomplish this by him/herself. This is where cliques and teamwork come in. I don't think that they are a bad thing. I don't think that we can move forward without teamwork/cliques. Outcrosses are easy. You just get a real good female and breed her to a real good male. You can get a real good pup out of such a cross, but the odds are aqainst you and usually the dog out of an outcross won't produce their likeness. (IMO)

Posted by Sawblade on 02-01-2013 09:04 PM:

Richard

Your right, to me #1 is outcross breeding most the time.
#7 the supercross is more than what you have listed. but easy to find. Just look at any stud and what females he was bred to . Find the cross that produced the most titled offspring of anydog he was bred to. lets look at Kate. she was bred to several studs but the cross on Pepper was the "best" and in turn Pepper had no other females he was bred to that produced more. That makes the Pepper/Kate pups supercross's, the breed has many.
Rat/Raven..Rocky/Maggie..Twister/Music..etc. they all have one thing in common ,it was the best cross for both the male and female. next step is to build a pedigree based on these kind on crosses and do it using linebreeding and ability to ability crosses that are winners.#1#,3 and #5. This to me is taking linebreeding to another level. There are several folks doing this weather they know it or not. The biggest problem is it takes a long time and you have to wait to see what dogs get titled.. a little common sense has to go into it also.

Posted by mmarshall on 02-01-2013 11:41 PM:

Using this as a example

......L pepper
..Male
.......Kate
Pup
......CD
...Female
......Pep Ann
Not shore but think this would be close to what your saying cd x Ann was a very good cross not shore if its both there best to date but has to be a very close second with three or four titled pups and be double on pep x Kate
And it is using #1 #3 #5
And is a fastball
And also would be using the bracket that mike talked of awhile back
And using rep list
Just making shore I fallow you on this Kelly

Posted by Sawblade on 02-02-2013 12:32 AM:

you got it

That is it exactly. The way I see it we have a bunch of dogs in the breed that can be put together this way. Then the next step would be to take those pups and eventually made a double supercross using two separate families. ...lets say a Rat/Raven based supercross with a Pepper/Kate one. Trick would be to have about 3 or 4generations deep on each side of the ped. I been looking at this for awhile now. That's why I did the top 50 list a couple of years ago, so I could try to figure out some of the best crosses that never ended up on the top reproducers lists.
We are hunting pups right now that have been put together this way using this method . They are the best I've seen since starting to breed redbones here. The biggest thing about this method is to do it correctly you HAVE to concentrate on both the females and males equally. Breeding is never just a stud dog game.

Posted by jdgher on 02-02-2013 02:04 PM:

1,3,5 Super cross

Plus: "hunt hunt hunt" these dogs, then hunt them some more
(the dogs being crossed). So the desired traits are obvious. I know you are doing this, but some may not know that. Just wanted to make this important point very clear.
I don't see the Clique in this case? Doors and windows to the club house seem wide open to those that hunt. Plus you guys tell
everthing and then some in this public forum and in person :-), which is a good thing. :-) Me, I don't talk much.

__________________
Darrin Gher
Elbridge Redbones
Home of
GRNTCH PR' Steve-O and Chili's Red Flow
NTCH PR' Twisters Musical Red Huey DNA-VIP Perf Sire 06'07 Deceased 11/07
Former Home of
NTCH 'PR' Swann's Lonesome Red Music/ Kitty
NTCH. CH PR' SawBlade Red Reckon
NTCH. CH PR' Gher's Timber Mt. Brandy
Breeder of
GRNTCH PR' Daugherty's Red BUBBA
NTCH CH PR' BA'S Tree Top Rockin Griddle
NTCH PR' Lickcreek Backwoods Lil Red Annie

Posted by Sawblade on 02-02-2013 03:59 PM:

jdgher

If I remember right I think Mr. jdgher is responsible for a supercross. I would say the Huey/Reckon qualifies and they were both out of supercrosses also . There are many breeders putting papers together like this ,just using different lines.

..........Twister 227 pups GN4 NC15
......Huey..40pups NC4
..........Music....43pups GN2 NC6....Rocky/Maggie GN5
Pups NC4
...........Doc..208pups GN5 NC14
......Reckon..39pups NC5
...........Fiddle...54pups GN3 NC5.....Sage/Feather GN1 NC2

Posted by thecoondawg76 on 02-02-2013 08:55 PM:

Re: jdgher

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
If I remember right I think Mr. jdgher is responsible for a supercross. I would say the Huey/Reckon qualifies and they were both out of supercrosses also . There are many breeders putting papers together like this ,just using different lines.

..........Twister 227 pups GN4 NC15
......Huey..40pups NC4
..........Music....43pups GN2 NC6....Rocky/Maggie GN5
Pups NC4
...........Doc..208pups GN5 NC14
......Reckon..39pups NC5
...........Fiddle...54pups GN3 NC5.....Sage/Feather GN1 NC2

That ped looks familiar.

__________________
Home of where the Heaviest Fireball bred hounds there are come from.
And the closest ones alive to GrNtCh Oklahoma Twister (the #1 reproducing son of Fireball) and GrNtCh Yellow River Rocky (the #2 reproducing son of Fireball) . Thanks to alot of help from my friends.

Handler of:
NtCh GrCh "PR" Dan Langston (Has 2 wins towards GrNtCh in the hunts) ( 10yr old owner asked for me to bring him back to his home) (wouldn't sell) (Ch D8 Dozer (bear hound from all coondog stock, out of my breeding) x NtCh Music/ Kitty) (33% Fireball thru heavy line breeding the highest GrNtCh Fireball blooded hound alive, who is hunt titled )

Home of:
'PR' Atomic Fireball's Harry Lady (GrNtCh. Barnyard Horse Harry x GrCh Daisy (was the highest Fireball blooded female alive)

'PR' Atomic Fireball's Toes ('PR' Atomic Fireball's Fast Talker (nephew to Bookem Danno) x 'PR' Atomic Fireball's Harry Lady

'PR' Atomic Fireball's Little Dixie (NtCh GrCh. 'PR' Dan Langston x 'PR'Harry Lady)

'PR' Atomic Fireball's Two Toes (NtCh GrCh Dan Langston x Atomic Fireball's Toes
Didn't have the deep hunt style I like but is a solid coonhound. Been treeing her own since her second night in the woods at 8 months old.

Former home of:
(Qualified for the 2011 World Hunt) NtCh. 'PR'Swann's Lonesome Red Music/ Kitty RIP (NtCh.Twister's Musical Red Huey x NtCh. Sawblade Red Reckon) RIP

GrNtCh Fireball's Jackpot Jackie, highest placing Redbone female ever, in the UKC World Hunt . RIP

GrCh. 'PR' Atomic Fireball's Little Daisy RIP (Was the highest GrNtCh Fireball blooded female in the world at the time) (Qualified for the 2010 World Show).

'PR' Atomic Fireball's Red River (Daisy x Brown's Oklahoma Twister) RIP (heatstroke)

Ch. D-8 Dozer (Was the Highest blooded GrNtCh Fireball blooded male in the world until I had the GrNtCh Twister pups from here) Was sent to be bear hunted because of his size and me being disabled. RIP

First and only sons of the Old GrNtCh #7 Historical Reproducer Brown's Okl. Twister (the #1 Producing Son of Fireball) in 15 years..

http://atomicfireballkennels.webs.com/
http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...threadid=341228
Steve Bell

Posted by jdgher on 02-03-2013 12:42 AM:

Supercross

Turkeyking67 and Jdgher carried on with what others did so well
before us. Then we were fortunate enough to get some of them in real good hands.
I don't remember a better time for the Redbone breed. Lots of different lines have super crosses to work with. Seems like breeders can outcross and just keep on rolling now, sometimes get even better dogs.
I remember when you would look at a 3 generation redbone pedigree and see 2 good dogs, maybe 1 dog from a supercross, you had to hang all your hope on that one dog passing all his good genes to his or her grand pup. The rest were brood stock.
Today pedigrees are packed for generations with good dogs that reproduce good dogs, with good traits, sometimes supercross on top of supercross. :-)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-04-2013 02:41 PM:

I have been "talking" about breeding for quite awhile but not raising any pups myself. I told myself that I would let others do the breeding and I would just hunt the pups. But I can't stand it any longer. I will have a female bred this weekend and raise the pups. Kelly, there will be several dogs in the pedigree that were on your "list". I think that the Kelly Blue Book List was very helpful because it not only listed the dogs but also raised awareness. I am very excited.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-04-2013 02:58 PM:

King

Are you going to tell your royal subjects what cross your making or will we have to wait for an official proclamation . LOL

Richard ,I like the Blue Book List thing, that's pretty much how I looked at it. I don't think I printed it but when I had it done I also had the breeders and owners listed. Seems like you were on there as a "BREEDER". You ain't fooling me ,can't wait to hear about the cross.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-04-2013 03:29 PM:

Re: King

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
Seems like you were on there as a "BREEDER".

Kelly, that was a long time ago.
Buck took an exceptional female from a very good litter and outcrossed her to a linebred male that was very near the top of your list. A very good female from this out cross was then bred back to her very nice Gr Nt half brother (who is also on the list) to intensify this line bred cross. Now I bred a very nice pup from this cross back to her outcrossed uncle to further intensify this linebreeding. If you look at the back of this pedigree, all you will see is: Rat X Raven, Bomber X Bell and Lil Zack X Sweetie. The pups that I get should be "prepotent" (I learned that word from mrg) and be able to be outcrossed to any line and reproduce their likeness. The pedigree will look like this:
............................Rat
...................Rabble
.......................................Bomber
.............................Raven
........................................Bell
........Moose
..............................Lil Zack
...................Sally
..............................Sweetie
Pups
............................................Rat
..............................Rabble
.............................................Raven
....................Haze
............................................Bomber
..............................Bombers Red Wire
.............................................Bell
........Wendy
.............................................Rat
..............................Rabble
..............................................Raven
....................Willow
.............................................Lil Zack
..............................Sally
.............................................Sweetie

Posted by Sawblade on 02-04-2013 03:40 PM:

I know

I know the outcross I'ld like to see, and they still would be tied together with a little Rat/Raven in there.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-04-2013 03:48 PM:

Re: I know

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I know the outcross I'ld like to see

What is it??? Maybe we can start a new "team".

Posted by Sawblade on 02-04-2013 05:12 PM:

outcross side

What ya think, my female to one of your males.

...........................Doc
...............Bone
............................Fiddle
.........Jake
............................Junior.." Sandy Creek and Zack"
...............Bean
.............................Lexus
..Female Pup
............................Sand Rock" out of Doc and Sandy Creek female"
...............Rocker
............................Fiddle
..........June
.............................Doc
...............Reckon
.............................Fiddle

Posted by mmarshall on 02-04-2013 05:41 PM:

Looks good guys it would be nice if some would post the super crosses that had three or more titled pups

Posted by bridger80 on 02-04-2013 06:12 PM:

I had a question. What made the Ratt/Raven cross so good. It seems like this is one of the really good crosses from this breed. I just wondered what it was about it.

The other question I had was, Are the repeat crosses consistently as good. It see that guys are rebreeding successful crosses. Do the second or even third litters turn out the same.?

__________________
Swann's Redhot Doc Tatum
(GRNITECH GRCH 'COPELAND'S RED HOT CLYDE & 'PR'SWANN'S LONESOME LITTLE LUCY)
Ladner's Inspector Westin

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-04-2013 07:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by mmarshall
it would be nice if some would post the super crosses that had three or more titled pups

Mark, Rat X Raven, Bomber X Bell, Lil Zack X Sweetie, Rabble X Bombers Red Wire, Rabble X Sally. Just look at my pups pedigree....

mrg, I tried to do what you are talking about, I think. No offense but I can't really understand the %'s and all of what you are saying. You are on a level above my understanding.

But we did take a super outcross (IMO) and linebreed it back twice to increase the prepotency of the pups. Now they should be ready to outcross again shouldn't they?

Bridger80, before you ask what made the Ratt X Raven cross so nice, you have to ask what made the Bomber X Bell, Rocky X Roxy, Rusty X Lil Sis and Rusty X Brandy crosses so nice.

Posted by Sawblade on 02-04-2013 07:37 PM:

Pedigrees

I'm not sure it's predictable or not. It's kinda like what comes first the chicken or the egg but supercross dogs show up in alot of the best reproducing hounds we see. The thing you notice is that many of the current dogs that would be considered out of supercross have pedigrees that show dogs from the past that were also supercross's in their day.

Mark, Doc/Fiddle NC4 ..Bone /Bean GN1 NC2 one more NC soon
Lexus was a Rat/Raven..Rocker/Reckon 8pups NC1 not a supercross but June is a solid Nitech hound with all the qualities of a very good female. The Jake/June cross has some of the best young dogs I've seen in years. Time will tell what the numbers will be. they are only 9 months old now. Ryan Briggs made the cross and we have been killing coon with several of them for 3 months now.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-04-2013 07:56 PM:

Kelly, maybe you could now go back to your list and post the supercrosses of yesteryear that are showing up in pedigrees today. If you look far enough into the past, then you "should" be able to predict the future with some success. When you can find a sire and dam that are both out of "supercrosses" that are themselves a supercross, then those pups should be capable of producing a supercross themselves. There are enough "super supercrosses" from different lines out there today that we could use to produce some really nice dogs in the future.

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-04-2013 08:20 PM:

ARE YOU SURE RICHARD

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Kelly, maybe you could now go back to your list and post the supercrosses of yesteryear that are showing up in pedigrees today. If you look far enough into the past, then you "should" be able to predict the future with some success. When you can find a sire and dam that are both out of "supercrosses" that are themselves a supercross, then those pups should be capable of producing a supercross themselves. There are enough "super supercrosses" from different lines out there today that we could use to produce some really nice dogs in the future.

I am no expert and not very smart, but from what I gathered from what mike was saying about the science of it, those super croses maybe not be the answer for reproduction if they are from an outcross,It looks to me that Mike knows quite a bit about the science of breeding and maintaining superior animals.

I think he would be a major asset in anyones breeding program.

Instead of jus tossing the cards in the air and see how they land.

__________________
Larry D Walker

Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by Sawblade on 02-04-2013 08:23 PM:

Figured it out.

Richard , you figured it out. Thats why I did the lists in the first place. That and one other reason ?
I think maybe I should have the lists re-done. it's been 2 years maybe we can see some new supercross's developing.

I like to try to see how many dogs from supercross's turn out to also be throwing supercross litters . What I see is those second generation S-cross litters really got the stuff when top and bottom dogs are out of an S-cross that was also linebred. You have been hunting with many dogs yourself that fall into that group .

The ped I first put up is a great example. The Huey/Reckon cross is a 3 gen S-cross.

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