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-- BIG BIG News! (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928470342)

BIG BIG News!

We're making huge changes here at UKC! Thanks to the help of Joe Newlin and Allen Rosenbarger. This change still has a lot of work to undergo, but for now I think you guys will be pleased!

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News...2282016090452AM

Thank you Krystal and the rest of the UKC team for hearing us, and for being responsive.... Big things coming.....

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Krystal,

I clicked on your link but got a "404" error code (file not found).

Just to let you know.

Me too now...it worked earlier....

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Here is the link!

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News...2282016090452AM

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Thanks, Oak Ridge !! This one works

Who would have thought Joe would be more internet savy than myself? haha Sorry guys! They re-formatted the page earlier and I didn't think to fix the link. I will edit it now!

I guess I have to be the wet blanket. Why??? Is it because of the difference in sizes? If so, all the coonhound events will require separation. You see everything from about 30 pounds up to the 90's there. Far more difference than most feists and curs. Not to mention if you cross the 2; you won't know how to register them until the pups grow up so you can determine weight.

Looks like we better split up all the hounds in each hunt also. Wouldn't want a bluetick to have to hunt with a walker. The only reason people want them split up is one of two reasons, they're either scared or plain and simple can't compete with the big dogs. What a joke! And another step backwards for the squirrel dog world.

Joe Levan

I can see where you might want to hold a breed hunt but especially a world hunt should be a "Take on All Comers" type deal. Otherwise..why bother? You should earn the right to be called Champion. It cheapens it in my opinion.

quote:

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Originally posted by Clif Owen
I can see where you might want to hold a breed hunt but especially a world hunt should be a "Take on All Comers" type deal. Otherwise..why bother? You should earn the right to be called Champion. It cheapens it in my opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clif Owen
I guess I have to be the wet blanket. Why??? Is it because of the difference in sizes? If so, all the coonhound events will require separation. You see everything from about 30 pounds up to the 90's there. Far more difference than most feists and curs. Not to mention if you cross the 2; you won't know how to register them until the pups grow up so you can determine weight.

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by Bigpoppy
My thoughts exactly! Very shameful for the squirrel dog world and two steps backwards in my opinion. Lots of feist breeders have been breeding for a dog that can compete with anything and splitting them up shoots everything in the foot that they've been trying to gain. You all think this will better your attendance at the bigger hunts but for me personally you have just ruined it. Was planning on attending some but no longer.

Joe Levan

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bigpoppy
Looks like we better split up all the hounds in each hunt also. Wouldn't want a bluetick to have to hunt with a walker. The only reason people want them split up is one of two reasons, they're either scared or plain and simple can't compete with the big dogs. What a joke! And another step backwards for the squirrel dog world.

Joe Levan

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by Clif Owen
Not to mention if you cross the 2; you won't know how to register them until the pups grow up so you can determine weight.

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

So...if I understand this correctly; you are dividing them based on hunting style. OK then, how do you classify a feist type dog that operates like a cur? I believe the McAndrews dogs fit this style. I think they are mostly a get gone get treed type dog.
What I really think the problem is..based on comments I've seen is that when the idea of competition squirrel hunts first came up; UKC didn't seem to be interested. Now I may be mistaken; but I think that is the issue in a bunch of cases.
That being said; I truly hope the program takes off and is highly successful. I am trying to get our state association to consider hosting a couple in addition to the NKC hunts they have. Not sure yet if the idea will fly. I do know that I will need to "study up" if they do as I'm sure it will be my deal to run.

I may be the only one that thinks this way but I believe that's what breed hunts are for. Have feists days and have cur days but any other UKC sanctioned hunt should be open to any dog registered with UKC. I've hunted all breeds and would never ask to be split up. You might draw in a few extra feist folks holding them this way but it surely isn't going to better the breed. Die hard feist breeders have been trying to better there line of feists by breeding for hunt and more stay put tree power so that they can compete at a higher level and have been doing a good job . I guess know this way they won't have to worry about it since there's gonna be hunts for them to go to filled with subpar dog's that are getting undeserved meaningless titles put on them cause they don't have to compete with anything worth feeding . Few of these remarks may sound harsh but are true.

Joe Levan

quote:

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Originally posted by Bigpoppy
I may be the only one that thinks this way but I believe that's what breed hunts are for. Have feists days and have cur days but any other UKC sanctioned hunt should be open to any dog registered with UKC. I've hunted all breeds and would never ask to be split up. You might draw in a few extra feist folks holding them this way but it surely isn't going to better the breed. Die hard feist breeders have been trying to better there line of feists by breeding for hunt and more stay put tree power so that they can compete at a higher level and have been doing a good job . I guess know this way they won't have to worry about it since there's gonna be hunts for them to go to filled with subpar dog's that are getting undeserved meaningless titles put on them cause they don't have to compete with anything worth feeding . Few of these remarks may sound harsh but are true.

Joe Levan

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quote:

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Originally posted by Clif Owen
So...if I understand this correctly; you are dividing them based on hunting style. OK then, how do you classify a feist type dog that operates like a cur? I believe the McAndrews dogs fit this style. I think they are mostly a get gone get treed type dog.
What I really think the problem is..based on comments I've seen is that when the idea of competition squirrel hunts first came up; UKC didn't seem to be interested. Now I may be mistaken; but I think that is the issue in a bunch of cases.
That being said; I truly hope the program takes off and is highly successful. I am trying to get our state association to consider hosting a couple in addition to the NKC hunts they have. Not sure yet if the idea will fly. I do know that I will need to "study up" if they do as I'm sure it will be my deal to run.

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by Bigpoppy
I may be the only one that thinks this way but I believe that's what breed hunts are for. Have feists days and have cur days but any other UKC sanctioned hunt should be open to any dog registered with UKC. I've hunted all breeds and would never ask to be split up. You might draw in a few extra feist folks holding them this way but it surely isn't going to better the breed. Die hard feist breeders have been trying to better there line of feists by breeding for hunt and more stay put tree power so that they can compete at a higher level and have been doing a good job . I guess know this way they won't have to worry about it since there's gonna be hunts for them to go to filled with subpar dog's that are getting undeserved meaningless titles put on them cause they don't have to compete with anything worth feeding . Few of these remarks may sound harsh but are true.

Joe Levan

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Joe,

I truly do respect your position. However, since I am not the advocate for the feist breeds....I don't have a horse in this race. However, I am somewhat a student of history, so let's look at the history of the participation of ANY feist in UKC events.

Now admittedly, the written history of the UKC competition squirrel hunts is pretty slim, so I had to look only at what is written.

I went all the way back to 2005, as far as the UKC Web site lists outcomes for a UKC world hunt. In that year, I could not determine IF there was a feist even entered in the hunt. However the world champion show dog was indeed a feist I read each entry from 2005 up to and including the 2018 World hunt breakdown. Some of them are indeed missing from the web site, so I'm not declaring this as 100% accurate. But the last three years of UKC world events, the average overall attendance has been 40 dogs.

Out of the "average" entry of 40 dogs, the average percentage of either of the recognized feist breeds is about 9%. Less than one dog out of ten entered has been a feist.

Then at the end of July of 2015, UKC announced a format change that allowed the feist to hunt seperate from the "big dogs" and the announcement of "breed days" hunts. The very first feist days drew 47 dogs.....already the entries in feist days was larger then the previous world hunt entry level.....In the 2016 World Hunt, the percentage of feist entries in increased to 11%. This year's feist days had 40 entries, which rivaled the world hunt this year....

So if this trend holds true, the separation of the feist from the curs will in effect DOUBLE the entries at the world hunt. That to me demonstrates that there was a "need" that was not being met.

Now, if you are leading one of those well bred feist that can "compete with anything", my suggestion to you is to saddle up, and head for Corbin KY on March 10th for the World Hunt. I would think that the simple act of winning the 1st World Feist Hunt you have the perfect opportunity to set the standard.....and by leading from the front of the pack, by showing the feist world what is available...just thinkin out loud!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bigpoppy
I've not owned a Feist in three years but even if I still did I would not drive across the street to hunt them at a hunt where they were kept seperate because basically they've been deemed inferior. There's already registrations that dogs can hunt in that's breed specific, like the atfa, omcba and such. I guess that I just think that since it's the UNITED kennel club any dog thats registered through UKC should be able to enter any ukc sanctioned event. If you wanted to hunt separate then attend a breed days hunt.

Joe Levan

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Okay guys, I was waiting on this very question....so, first off thanks for asking....

The primary driver that lead to this decision was not about "size". We can't ignore the size difference between an 8 pound Mountain Feist and a 65 pound "treeing cur"....that much is for sure. And there is NO doubt at all that the size difference was keeping people from attending and supporting UKC events. We found this to be true when the ability of a club to schedule feist only or cur only hunts....the feist guys came out in droves when they could compete with dogs of their own size and type. So while I understand and appreciate your position about breeders working to "compete with anything"....the history of the World Hunt, and the history of attendance and participation in UKC events with feist tells a different story. I would not be surprised to have more feist at the world hunt this year than cur dogs....but the split will most likely DOUBLE the attendance at the World Hunt at least....

Let's look at the groupings of the two dogs.... The cur is grouped in the "scenthound" group. This grouping tells us that one of the foundations of the Curs is that they are expected to use scent as a primary tool when hunting. The feist on the other hand are grouped in the terrier group. By design, these breeds are expected to primarily use eyes and ears to locate game.

Now, the reality is that Curs are known to be "big hunters", while most feist owners walk hunt their dogs.... The simple fact is that while they are both squirrel dogs, they are different breeds, they go about getting the job done in different manners. They may have different desires and different rules because of these differences.

By insisting that the two different types of dogs, the two different styles of dogs be stuffed into the same competition hunt or category because they both tree squirrels....simply was holding BOTH categories back.

These are NOT coon hounds. In my experience all of the coon hound breeds pretty much operate the same. They are free cast, go strike a track, open on the ground, locate and tree until you get there. No real difference in the way they operate, yet they are different breeds.

The beagle world is split up in much the same way....Hunting beagles, small pack beagles, large pack beagles....they don't compete against each other, yet they are all the same breed. Bird dogs are another example. You have pointers, who are expected to retrieve, retrievers who are expected to point...yet they don't hunt together...Yet it's all "bird hunting"....

While I know that there are going to be folks who think it is a bad idea, and I'm sorry that you feel that way. A lot of thought went into the decision....and a lot of different opnions were considered.

I would ask that you look at this change as a foundation change for growing the squirrel dog program. Change is difficult to accept, and sometimes difficult to understand. But change is NOT bad.... how we deal with change makes it good or bad.
__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

good post and I do see it being for the better...

once upon a time I crossed the larger kemmer mt cur with the larger omcba mt cur and produce hard hunting dogs that were quick to strike and stick with the track until the hog came bayed whether it was a few minutes or many hours...these dogs had good speed, size, and good ear to them...45 to 50 pound females and 50-60 pound males...the first thing that happened is that I could not register these dogs in either registry...another thing is that nowadays too many mt curs are not bred this way...while making these changes we need a another category of mt cur...a big game mt cur which can also hunt coon...usually a coon dog can make a hog dog but a squirrel dog can be a 50-50 chance or less...why not have that category? for those that hunt bobcat, hog and or bear can have a place to look for this type of mt cur dog and or pups...the larger type mt cur is hard to beat as a hunting dog when bred right...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
good post and I do see it being for the better...

once upon a time I crossed the larger kemmer mt cur with the larger omcba mt cur and produce hard hunting dogs that were quick to strike and stick with the track until the hog came bayed whether it was a few minutes or many hours...these dogs had good speed, size, and good ear to them...45 to 50 pound females and 50-60 pound males...the first thing that happened is that I could not register these dogs in either registry...another thing is that nowadays too many mt curs are not bred this way...while making these changes we need a another category of mt cur...a big game mt cur which can also hunt coon...usually a coon dog can make a hog dog but a squirrel dog can be a 50-50 chance or less...why not have that category? for those that hunt bobcat, hog and or bear can have a place to look for this type of mt cur dog and or pups...the larger type mt cur is hard to beat as a hunting dog when bred right...

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Big Big News!

When the Treeing cur registry first started I thought it would fly like a lead balloon...I am surprised at what has been accomplished with it...there are many good dogs out there that do well when they are a cross with good hounds...

However, I was talking about two different lines of mt curs...one was omcba and the other kemmer...I registered one as a green papered dog back in those days and then when I couldn't register the rest I just kept my own records...

There are many different strains of mt curs out there but of the type I mentioned...those are hard to find...I could breed a Nugget bred Kemmer to a big game plott and more or less get what I want...

But what would be so hard to have a big game category for mt curs? I envision a more uniform type mt cur of the bigger type...and it should be available to all the different registries to register or dual register their mt curs with UKC...also, if they are mt curs then they should be bred without any issues whether omcba, kemmer or whatever...a mt cur is a mt cur...but because they vary so much is why we should have this category...

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

OK Joe..I've had my say. Now for the real question: What can I do to help? I'm afraid that about all I have to offer is interest and 30+ years judging coonhounds. Both in the woods and on the bench. However, I am devoted to promoting tree dogs so I think the potential is there if we can uncover a way.