UKC Forums - Which two

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- X-Bred (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=65)
-- Which two (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928478031)

Posted by Sawblade on 03-25-2017 12:09 PM:

Which two

I was just wondering what everyone thought.
What two breeds do you all think make the best xbred cross to produce a winning coonhound in the hunts.
When I was a kid my neighbor swore a bluetick / Beagle was the absolute best for a rabbit dog.

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-27-2017 04:39 PM:

Sawblade I thought you were going to start working on some High Tan projects? What happened? I think eventually High Tans will be the most popular XBred.

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-28-2017 04:03 AM:

first cross

yep, the F1's all came out red. Next cross should be better.
Funny , you can't get an x breeder to comment on the X-bred page but the pure bred guys will talk all day long about the new classification on their page..
long as I got your ear how about UKC just help us all out and write some breed standards for X-bred dogs, that way they can show those pretty suckers ,while your at it lets change the rules and the name. Make it that any established UKC recognized coonhound breed can be crossed the result would be called The American Coonhound. They would carry this new name . I'll join the Association , I want to be the first member. Let me write the standards for color. I'm not kidding.

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-28-2017 04:16 PM:

We discussed all that back before we announced XBred. I'm personally in favor of the way it is set up now. But who knows, if we ever start seeing real numbers of these crosses showing up there would probably be some interest in discussing what you have proposed above.

Your proposal does not make any distinction between 1) dogs being intentionally crossbred 2) accidental cross breedings 3) dogs of unknown ancestry and 4) purebreds with dq faults. XBred seems a better fit to be all-inclusive. Your proposal seems like a fit for category 1 above. To me anyway? Thoughts?

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-28-2017 10:23 PM:

thats the reason

I like the idea of UKC Pr bred coonhounds of different breeds being crossed if a breeders wants to. That's why I suggest a name and breed standards. The other x-bred dogs are next to impossible to create a historical set of paper on. I like dogs with accurate papers .

Take a registered Black n Tan bred to registered Walker . Those pups could easily have a 7 generation pedigree printed. That's breeding coonhound to coonhound. American Coonhound would be a generalized breed with historical pedigrees and all coming from coonhound bloodlines. Lets face it we see dogs like that in hunts today they just have an inaccurate set of papers on them. Not many but I'm sure there are some.
Dogs with no traceable history just leave them x-bred because who really knows what kind of Timberdoodle/Poodle they really are.

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-29-2017 01:40 PM:

Re: thats the reason

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade

Take a registered Black n Tan bred to registered Walker . Those pups could easily have a 7 generation pedigree printed. That's breeding coonhound to coonhound. American Coonhound would be a generalized breed with historical pedigrees and all coming from coonhound bloodlines.

Dogs with no traceable history just leave them x-bred because who really knows what kind of Timberdoodle/Poodle they really are.

I understand the logic here. That's why I was saying above that you are really only talking about the cross defined in category 1. I guess I hadn't considered having an American Coonhound AND still maintaining XBred for dogs that fit category 2, 3, and 4.

I don't hate the idea.

So what I want to know is are you still planning on moving forward with the High Tan project? Just curious. You got it all figured out?

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 03-29-2017 02:45 PM:

The X breed forum is lifeless because whoever owns one still wants to identify with one side of that coin normally. I.E. myself 😁

But, in the event where PR is crossed on a PR, you'd think a standard could be established. I realize the color wheel could be all over the place, but the ears, feet, hips, etc could be judged...by show merits, which seem to drive the standards we are referencing. I'm not a show guy though and don't currently wanna be.

As far as hunting ability, well that's all I personally pay attention to myself. I prefer a well built dog, works much better in the steep stuff I hunt, but we all know pretty doesn't always tree coons.

I like the X-Breed option, I never liked the single registered deal naming a dog a particular breed when in fact it wasn't, it just "looked" like it MIGHT be, but at least they did have to tree a coon. So, that also means I don't like for grade dogs being brought in, UKC is based on pure breeds, to steer away from that would be hard to imagine.

Posted by Sawblade on 03-30-2017 02:05 AM:

Figured out

Yep, just look up " Polish hound" . A little shot of that in my xbred and I got it. Their real breed name is "Ogar Polski" can you help me find one ????

Posted by Sawblade on 03-30-2017 02:21 AM:

Todd

Want me to start on the breed standards for the" American Coonhound" it's a good idea.

Posted by Chris Snyder on 03-30-2017 04:40 AM:

Suggestion

Kelly. While you are becoming the founding father of the American Coonhound, install somewhere a performance standard that must be maintained. It just needs to look like a hound, move like a hound and tree a coon.

Im almost ready to cast a vote for no defined breed standard just to keep show folks out and the performance integrity up.

Love the idea of having an "American Coonhound". The others without papers or breed mixing like bird dog to coonhound could stay x bred. The known parentage should count for something.

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-30-2017 01:51 PM:

Re: Suggestion

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Snyder
Kelly. While you are becoming the founding father of the American Coonhound, ..........

Lol. I'm sorry. But that is funny.

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 03-30-2017 03:04 PM:

Walker x Black and Tan would get my vote.

My buddy bred his Black female to my male walker and she had 10 pups and lost 8 at birth. With any luck we will have two to test out anyway.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 03-30-2017 03:59 PM:

American Coonhound ?

Not sure I understand the logic. If you know what's back there call it a crossbreed cause that's what it is. If you don't know call it xbred. Why does it become its own breed ?

If I breed a bulldog to a shih tzu can I create a new breed and register them ? Can I call them bullish!t ? Lol

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Posted by Autumn Clements on 03-30-2017 11:45 PM:

Re: American Coonhound ?

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Not sure I understand the logic. If you know what's back there call it a crossbreed cause that's what it is. If you don't know call it xbred. Why does it become its own breed ?

If I breed a bulldog to a shih tzu can I create a new breed and register them ? Can I call them bullish!t ? Lol

its a thing in the dog world, poodle crosses just seen boxer crosses the other day for sale for $700 and them poodle crosses go for a couple thousand haha

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Autumn Clements

'PR'LEAD'S MIDNITE SASSY
CFC CH Canadian GCH Multi Group Placing MBPIG BBPIG LEGACYK STANNYFIELD PRIME TIME (AKC & UKC Pointed)
BPIG MBBPIG WINDAMIRS RED LIGHT DISTRICT V AMBERLANE
LEGACYK DARE TO DREAM V CBLUES
LEGACYK WHITE AS A GHOST V CBLUES

Gone but not forgotten
GRNITECH GRCH PKC CH'PR'CLEMENTS' BLUE PRANCER
GRNITECH GRCH'PR'SPIKE'S TWILITE HOOKER
'PR'PRANCER'S GETTIN DOWN N DIRTY (PrancerxHooker)
NITECH CH�PR�BUELL�S BLUE ROCKY(Whitey x Spice)
CKC BBPIG MARIES BABY BREEZE

Posted by Sawblade on 03-31-2017 02:17 AM:

think about it

You got the species ,we call it dog
Then sub-species, we call it hound
Then we break it down again to scenthound.
usually the next breakdown is Breed . Beagle, Basset ,etc.
To me Coonhound is the breed. so if you cross two coonhounds verses say a beagle and a coonhound the first cross between two coonhounds will not alter the conformation it will alter the color ,maybe. That is because all the coonhounds are basically the same breed standard. If you cross a coonhound with just about anything else you will change the conformation of the dog somehow.
Yellow labs get bred to Black labs and the pups are labs. why not let Redbone coonhounds bred to Black and tan coonhounds still be coonhounds. That's what they are . Are they really a cross of two different breeds or have we just done that by describing the different colors. Coonhound is a breed of hound just like beagle is a breed of hound. Beagles are identified further by their size but they all remain beagles if you breed a 13 inch to a 15inch they are still registered beagles. Coonhounds ,at least to me are no different.
That's why I say lets let them keep the name Coonhound no matter what color phase of coonhound is crossed. We have the ability to track the parentage and prove it's all coonhound. When someone asks you what kind of dog you have do you say "it's a coonhound" I usually do. If you answer it's a Walker many times you have to tell the uneducated person 'Walkers are coonhounds" most times people instantly know what a coonhound is.

Posted by thomasg on 03-31-2017 04:21 AM:

i have a 1 year old english x walker . his sire and dam are both pr breed .i find it some what strange that my pup doesnt carry pr in front of his name . he is no less pr bred than any other dog from traditional breed to breed crosses . my question to todd is can a x-bred dog run the purina race or is the purina race just for the 7 other coon hound breeds that are accepted by u.k.c. ? american coonhound with a breed ass. . and show standard sometime in the future and a vote in the rule changes would be a great idea to kick around some . heck i saw a bobtail dog in a show some call a hound now days . lol

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-31-2017 02:14 PM:

So Sawblade using that logic would you support a motion to remove all the breed names from the six coonhound breeds and just call them all Coonhounds? I mean if the only difference is color are they simply strains of one breed? At the world hunt we could just recognize the best red one and the best ticked one, etc.

Since the Plott Hound does not trace it's ancestry to the foxhound would you have Coonhounds and Gamehounds?

If you continually crossbred all six of the coonhound breeds what would end up as the most common color of hound? High Tan or Speckled?

It gets pretty messy doesn't it? I realize I'm partial but I think the category name XBred is cool anyway.

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-31-2017 02:20 PM:

ThomasG I could pose the same question to you. Since PR designates three generation of registered ancestors in one breed, your wish for the cross to be PR would only make sense if Walker and English were the same breed. By being separate breeds you don't have 3 generations of any one breed and therefore cannot be PR.

The better question would be, if I continue to breed my XBred as XBred for three generations would I have PR XBred? THAT is a good question! lol

And yes, XBred is eligible to run the Purina Series.

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 03-31-2017 02:42 PM:

Todd, for my own education, does UKC have a written definition of Purple Ribbon? I'm sure they do, I'd just like to read it.

And I like XBreed...cause I got one I like!

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 03-31-2017 03:03 PM:

Here it is from the FAQ's on the Registration page:

What does Purple Ribbon mean?

"Purple Ribbon" is a distinction UKC gives to a dog if all 14 ancestors within a dog's three generation pedigree (parents, grandparents, great grandparents) are each registered with United Kennel Club, and are of the same breed.

Purple Ribbon is indicated by the letters 'PR' at the beginning of a dog's name and also by a comma (,) instead of a dash (-) within the dog's UKC number.

In order to receive a complete Seven Generation pedigree (showing 254 ancestors), the dog's parents must both be registered as Purple Ribbon. A Six Generation pedigree for the dog that was not produced by Purple Ribbon parents may have some Open entries depending on the availability of pedigree information on record with UKC.

UKC will automatically add the letters 'PR' to the beginning of the dog's registered name and the 'PR' will not count toward the 30 characters and spaces limitation for the allowable length of the dog's registered name.

- See more at: https://www.ukcdogs.com/registration-faqs#purple

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If we're not suppose to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat?

Posted by Adam Wingler on 03-31-2017 03:30 PM:

I assumed that as much from experience and thanks.

Begs some confusion though, so an X breed, would have to cross back on a PR dog for two more generations to get the PR designation back?

personally I just want to see a set of papers printed within enough ancestry so I know what I might be dealing with from a hunting traits point of view.

Posted by thomasg on 03-31-2017 10:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
ThomasG I could pose the same question to you. Since PR designates three generation of registered ancestors in one breed, your wish for the cross to be PR would only make sense if Walker and English were the same breed. By being separate breeds you don't have 3 generations of any one breed and therefore cannot be PR.

The better question would be, if I continue to breed my XBred as XBred for three generations would I have PR XBred? THAT is a good question! lol

And yes, XBred is eligible to run the Purina Series.

if my coonhound history is correct the treeing walker was a english till 1945. the bluetick was a english till 1946 . lol so if i keep breeding my x-bred dogs within these 3 breeds breeding for ability first and not color it will be just like walking in the past .the # 2 historical english female has master latch a treeing walker in her pedigree and is not pr breed . guess i can live without the pr on my papers if my breeding goals are meet . its u.k. c. that misses out by all that money i would have spent for 7 generation papers .lol

Posted by Autumn Clements on 04-01-2017 02:54 AM:

Re: think about it

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
You got the species ,we call it dog
Then sub-species, we call it hound
Then we break it down again to scenthound.
usually the next breakdown is Breed . Beagle, Basset ,etc.
To me Coonhound is the breed. so if you cross two coonhounds verses say a beagle and a coonhound the first cross between two coonhounds will not alter the conformation it will alter the color ,maybe. That is because all the coonhounds are basically the same breed standard. If you cross a coonhound with just about anything else you will change the conformation of the dog somehow.
Yellow labs get bred to Black labs and the pups are labs. why not let Redbone coonhounds bred to Black and tan coonhounds still be coonhounds. That's what they are . Are they really a cross of two different breeds or have we just done that by describing the different colors. Coonhound is a breed of hound just like beagle is a breed of hound. Beagles are identified further by their size but they all remain beagles if you breed a 13 inch to a 15inch they are still registered beagles. Coonhounds ,at least to me are no different.
That's why I say lets let them keep the name Coonhound no matter what color phase of coonhound is crossed. We have the ability to track the parentage and prove it's all coonhound. When someone asks you what kind of dog you have do you say "it's a coonhound" I usually do. If you answer it's a Walker many times you have to tell the uneducated person 'Walkers are coonhounds" most times people instantly know what a coonhound is.

I agree with you to a extent. Plotts do look different then the other 5 breeds. I think there is some hieght differences in the standard between a couple of the breeds too possibly.

Posted by Sawblade on 04-01-2017 01:41 PM:

Move a mountain

Todd , I can see how moving that mountain could get messy.
I agree Plott's are a different bloodline. The rest are lines of similar dogs. . I can go to a hunt now and look at a dog and not know what "breed" it is but I'm sure it's all coonhound. I been fooled by many English dogs. Thought they were blueticks or walkers or something in between. As some have stated the English dogs seem to have it both ways . I still like American Coonhound instead of Xbred when we know the pedigrees. Xbred implies mut and when all parents are registered coonhounds. I'm not accepting that as a mut. If the different breeds are true breeds than what does Coonhound indicate?
Do you think Xbred class 1 deserves a different name than the other xbred. I do .. how about this suggestion. lets name them "Coonhound Xbred" and give them a standard and let them show as well as compete in all events. The rest of the xbred classifications can be moved up to that new name after 3 or 4 generations of being bred to all pr coonhound parents no matter the breed.

Either that or drop the other ways to xbred. Leave the unknown dogs up to the Breed associations to accept thru single registration the old way and UKC just track PR dogs bred from Coonhound breeds. This keep coonhound to coonhound blood that is easy to make a set of papers .

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 04-01-2017 03:23 PM:

Re: American Coonhound ?

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
. If you know what's back there call it a crossbreed cause that's what it is. If you don't know call it xbred.

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