Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 59

I have some freinds that are convinced that a good dry ground dog can do things a good snow trailer can't. I realize it takes a lot less nose to catch a lion in the snow so obviosly more people enjoy success in northern climates. They try to tell me dry ground dogs are bred and northern strains just won't do. I try to tell them they are the same dogs it depends on where they were trained. Do you think a dog with a good nose and tracking ability that is raised in the snow can easily adapt to the dirt and consistently find the right end and catch lions on dry ground?

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Tonasket,Washington
Posts: 923

I'm not sure.I know I figured those dry ground dogs would just be able to scream a track when brought up here but I've bought two for d!@# good money,that I saw with my own two eyes were d!@# good dry ground dogs,but they couldn't cut it for me anyway when taken out of that element and believe me they were given time to climatize.As most of you guys that hunt snow,know,there is different types of snow too(wet and dry).I guess my vote is like you they are all the same dogs just depends on the line and the upbringing.

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Last edited by Travis Stirek on 08-06-2007 at 02:13 AM

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

Totally depends on the dogs themselves....

Our hounds run the bobcats in the snow here in Oregon. But every year my hounds go to CO/UT to hunt and they do it in the dirt... Those guys DO say that a lot of northern hounds take a month or more to adapt if they do... but my dogs seem to get it down and remember after dumping them on one track.. Then they are running in the dirt like they grew up with it... But all of my dogs, save one that was there last year, are out of the same lines...

So maybe it is the lines of the dogs.. Maybe it is what you expose them to (mine have done damage control in the dead of summer)
I don't know... But I do know some of those dry ground dogs that hunt the cliffs can't or won't locate when you bring them up north and stick them in the timber....

SO I don't think as a whole that dry ground dogs are better then dogs in the snow.. They are just used to their own world..

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

i never ran a lion in the dirt- or anywhere else- so i should just shut up lol -
i have always appreciated dogs with a little extra nose- they realy pay off when conditions are tough-i kind of agree with travis-
- the outwest dogs came from backeast and get shipped back n forth all the time-- if a guy bred and selected those same dogs for nose for generations id bet on them being better at whatevr and whereever -- lol


snow can be best or worst running there is-

tough conditions are tough conditions- wherever -

hot dusty and dry is tough --so is poring rain -- so is 30 below week old crusty snow -- lol

-my theory is breed for nose and train it out of them if its too much- -- thats easier than the other way around-
u can teach a dog to handle- you can call him off those bad tracks

easier to train a dog to handle than make a dog go on old track that just isnt wired to do it -

u cant train EVERY dog to cold trail - if there are no relatives ever used to coldtrail i wouldnt spend much time on him -

lot of dogs make good coldtrailing start dogs when they are older--

i dont think nose gets better with age-- it is just haveing the patience to work out a track-and the rest is experience-
- patience is rare in most young dogs -i dont have a lot myself lol


dont look for coldltrailers from strains of dogs where there never was any-- it isnt a breed thing or a geographic thing but just what they are selected and bred for--- there are strains in every breed that odds are better of getting a coldtrailer --

some dogs cold trail naturally very young ,work with those , lol


i sorta inherited an old lion dog once - he would actually lick the brush or rocks like id read about in books-- i kind of got a kick out of that-- he was old when i got him--he really was a nice hound - id wished id got him when he was younger

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Registered: Feb 2005
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I agree with Pete. Mark

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Registered: Dec 2005
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Posts: 24

I have hunted lions for over 30 years and I totally agree with Pete and some of you put way to much emphasis on "dry ground" dogs!

I have brought dogs from the NW that were suppose to be excellent cat dogs and they looked foolish here in Utah.

I have brought dogs from Arizona and they also looked foolish in the conditions I hunt.

I firmly believe that dogs with extra tracking ability will catch you more game and houndsmen need to breed more for this trait.


How, when and where a hound is trained governs pretty much everything

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 59

Let me clarify, I'm mostly talking about southwestern lines of dogs that have never hunted in snow compared to northwestern dogs that have only hunted in snow. I have never run a cat whose track I found in the dirt. We have very little dirt to begin with. I have ,however treed thirty or foury lions over the years that were relatively short races while roading my dogs.I have also rigged cats while bear hunting, but in each case the dog found the track. I wouldn't say I have dry ground dogs because I primarily hunt in the snow. I feel some of my dogs have the ability to trail colder tracks in the dirt, but hunting them in snow tends to make them lazy. Also having a four or five day kill season means ther are very few cold tracks out there. A four and a half month chase season. Sometimes makes it hard to test a dogs tracking ability, mainly because we tend not to want to mess with a cat 3 or 4 days that we don't intend to kill. We can generally find a fresh track. now that we have gone to a draw we will tend to work hard on a toad that we have found old. Our country does not allow us to freshen up a track with sleds very often. The dogs have to do it all. I feel the longer a dog hunt in one or the other the harder it is for them to adapt. It is a little like learning chinese. It comes easier for some than others. Some may speak english fine ,but will never learn to speak chinese.

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

I was wondering how long it would take before this debate came up ! LOL

First off , let me say that I don't hunt lions and never have. But , that don't matter. I have been running hounds on dry ground ( dusty cornfields and pines with nothing but sand under them ) and snow all my life.

In my opinion , it don't matter. Ain't one any better than the other.

A dog runs by it's sense of smell ( and IMO , taste ) , not by what it sees ( or doesn't see ) on the ground.
If the dirt don't hold the scent , a dog ain't gonna run it.
If the snow don't hold the scent , a dog ain't gonna run it.

Now , some dogs may be smart enough to figure out ways to help themselves , like licking rocks or brush , or using it's eyes to look for tracks in the snow , but they still gotta smell it/taste it or they ain't gonna run it.
I'd say that if you got a dog smart enough to figure one of those out , he'd probably figure out the other if given the chance.

" I have ,however treed thirty or foury lions over the years that were relatively short races while roading my dogs. "

If you're a lion hunter , this would lead me to believe that your dogs are pretty hot-nosed. If not , someone's trashing and the rest can't take the pressure.

" but hunting them in snow tends to make them lazy. "

Could you explain this please?

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Registered: Jun 2007
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Posts: 59

In the first quote I was simply saying my dogs have winded lions or crossed fairly fresh lion tracks while I was conditioning them. They ran and treed the lion, but it was never over a mile away. With the lazy comment I was trying to explain when I run in ideal conditions a lot my dogs will struggle with a tough track. I may have to walk with them and get them to get them to line out. After I run a few in succession all you have to do is open the box and they know it will be tough but they will work their guts out. I would not say I have any real cold nosed dogs at this time. Try not to confuse that with the ability to move a tough track.Taking a thirty six hour old track and being able to move it fast enough catch the suspect are not the same to me.I used to have a dog that would take a track she could never finish if the cat was traveling. It was not because she would quit either. She would not move a good track a whole lot faster because she had to check everyone.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

I am of the opinion that
Nose is Nose, Snow or Dirt
Brains is Brains, Snow or Dirt
Cold trailing is Cold trailing, Snow or Dirt
However there are tricks to doing either well.
I think it's more a matter of exposure than anything.
Jess

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Registered: Jun 2007
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Posts: 59

I think you guys are right. I really just wanted to try and find another way of explaining it to these guys. I think with exposure a savvy dog can figure it out.

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Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Duvall,Wa
Posts: 35

i think its all in the bloodline and how the dog was brought up. I live in western washionton and i dont get much snow so i mostley hunt dry ground and do pretty well and when i get snow it just makes it easyier to find the track u want to run u pretty much can pick your track on how old our fresh it is and i do think the condition of the snow makes a big diff. kinda like if its raining our just plain dry out makes a diff

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Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Sandy Hook, Ky
Posts: 221

is in the breeding

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Registered: Jul 2003
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Posts: 284

Lotta great thought provoking opinions here.

I agree that where a dog is trained has a lot to do with the kind of tracks they end up trying to work ( hot or cold ) but I also agree that so much of it is a genetic predisposition that helps make them better at one or the other.

I run lion and bobcat on snow and have come to the conclusion that most good coondogs will learn to work out a snow track, even a 4 day old snow track as long is the temperature is warm enough for the snow to release some scent. I've heard about dogs licking rocks to release the scent from them and I believe it. And I think that can be learned. I've also watched hounds stick there nose into an old snow track and blow into it a couple times and then take off on it. This warms up the frozen snow enough to release some scent. I believe this too can be learned. The difference in doing this in the snow verses on dry ground is the opportunity to first find the track with their eyes in the snow and then verify that it's a cat by using there nose. This opportunity allows them to run the track with their head up using their eyes and then occasionally verifying that it's a cat track with their nose. On a cold dry ground track where there's no scent in the air a dog has to have it's nose on the ground to find the next track left by the cat. If they try running it with their head in the air they're going to be spending all day trying to pick up their loses. And if they are actually running it by scent in the air then it's not cold trailing.

I believe the reason good dry ground dogs usually don't look good in the snow is they've never learned to use their eyes. They pretty much work it out one step at a time with their nose. They can learn to use their eyes but the motivation for a dog to learn this comes from trying to move a track fast. A dog that's wired to have the patience to work an extremely cold track just usually isn't wired to try and push it this fast. That's the genetic predisposition I mentioned. Most coonhunters don't want that kind of patience in a coondog. The way the game is played is different. Lion hunters appreciate a dog that will grub out an old lion track for 8 hours before getting it treed. Most coonhunters want tracks finished much quicker than that and so that's what we breed for.

My dogs are dual purpose cat and coon dogs and I catch my share of cats in the snow. But if I found myself living in the desert southwest with nothing to do but hunt dry ground cat's I'd be looking for some different blood and I wouldn't be using dogs that are being advertised in the American cooner to get them.

Just my thoughts.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1587

is like a basketball player as example. If he's good and has the tools, you raise the basket or lower it say 2 feet. Give him a few shots ( or tracks in the case of a hound ) and he'll be back on his game. I got a really good coyote hound some years back that was ran on dry ground and when I got him up here, it took a few tracks for him in the snow, but after a couple of days of running, we could put him on a cold track and he did as good of a job as our best that was raised here.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

The difference in doing this in the snow verses on dry ground is the opportunity to first find the track with their eyes in the snow and then verify that it's a cat by using there nose.



yup-

i agree with that-- i dont know how many times ive pointed out a track i saw on dirt, mud ,whatever - sicced dog on it a little --and then he ran it - or at least tried , lol

one of my pet peeves is why does a dog on a leash always think he has a better nose than the one i let go lol

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