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l p w
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: thomas springs tn
Posts: 404

artificial breeding

What does everyone think about breeding to semen from dogs that are dead. An old timer I know that has been in hounds for years said there was no way he would do it. He said if you have to go back to a dog you had 20 years ago you haven't been doing your breeding right. I'm no breeder by no means but he is one of the best. He said you should get better each generation. What does everyone else think.

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03-19-2013 01:45 PM

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tylerman
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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: indiana
Posts: 6639

Vote to close it at the next meeting.

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03-19-2013 02:36 PM

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Joe Maitland
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Greenleaf, WI
Posts: 839

old timer-

You should find an old timer to take advice from.

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03-19-2013 03:58 PM

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RED REBELS
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2007
Location: Medford, WI
Posts: 3312

quote:
Originally posted by tylerman
Vote to close it at the next meeting.

how are you going to put a rule telling people how they can and cannot breed?

I don't think it should be necessary to do it because, as you said "l p w" you should get better with every generation, but that is not necessarily true. I mean look at the walker breed, if they were getting better, wouldn't the slick treeing dogs be virtually gone by now?

So, should we do it all the time, I don't think so.
Is it a good idea once in a while, sure.

It also can bring back some old traits that have been bred out that we like, or ones that just kind of have been hidden when we were focusing on other traits...

just my thoughts

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03-19-2013 04:01 PM

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Dale Young
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

Not need to is a good theory but if you drop something or lose it it's nice to have another to fall back on . It's not overly expensive to draw/store but the breeding is with no real guarantees of success .

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03-19-2013 04:38 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

If you study proven line breeding techniques you will find that frozen semen allows you continuation and concentration that was never possible before by bringing the source dog back in many generations down the line....which would never be possible on living stud dogs. I have made 4 such crosses with frozen semen from my male who was born in 1991 and each is showing great results.
Look at what some of the walker breeders have done with frozen Harry semen. Harry was born in 1993. His semen is almost gone but the success of line bred crosses on his own descendants are proving to work so well that it has pushed the price of his semen to $3000 per pellet. If it were not working....people would not pay that kind of money to go back to it.
I wonder how many people would pay good money for some Famous Amos, Burning Ben, or Rabble Rouser semen if it were available so they could line breed with descendants of these dogs?....I know I would.

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03-19-2013 05:05 PM

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tylerman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: indiana
Posts: 6639

how are you going to put a rule telling people how they can and cannot breed?

that is exactly what they want to do....but wait a minute....not if its good for me....or I think its not good for you.....control....

bring it up for vote and let the majority rule and except the majority ruling....it is what is best for the assoc.

Take away the rights that some need and see how the works out.

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03-19-2013 05:17 PM

rickp
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2011
Location: Utica Oklahoma
Posts: 887

People sometimes don't realize what they had until it's gone . Hunters think they got a good hound from a breeder and that the breeders will keep trying to produce the same type dogs .The breeders may think they need to go for something different and traits or even a whole line of hounds can be lost . Using frozen semen could be a great tool to come back from mistakes . Remember hind sight is 20-20 .

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03-19-2013 05:19 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by tylerman
how are you going to put a rule telling people how they can and cannot breed?

that is exactly what they want to do....but wait a minute....not if its good for me....or I think its not good for you.....control....

bring it up for vote and let the majority rule and except the majority ruling....it is what is best for the assoc.

Take away the rights that some need and see how the works out.

Dave, I think you may have your threads mixed up....this one is about artificial breeding with frozen semen.....its not controlled by the associations, it is allowed by ukc.

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03-19-2013 05:20 PM

oklared
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Registered: May 2005
Location: oklahoma
Posts: 5035

I WAS JUST WONDERING IF THERE ARE SEVERAL FROZEN SEMEN DOGS THAT HAVE WON IN SOME OF THE BIG HUNTS LIKE FRESH OR CHILLED HAVE

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03-19-2013 07:28 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by oklared
I WAS JUST WONDERING IF THERE ARE SEVERAL FROZEN SEMEN DOGS THAT HAVE WON IN SOME OF THE BIG HUNTS LIKE FRESH OR CHILLED HAVE

Yes there are alot in the walker breed. Any dog out of stylish harry that is 9 or 10 years old or younger is from frozen semen. In fact the female who won 1st place registered at the winter classic is a Harry frozen semen pup called "Mo Harry Love". Even though Mojo is still alive...many of his pups are from frozen and chilled semen. There are many others....but those are two that have alot of pups on the ground from frozen semen that are winning. The 2011 national redbone days champion Dual Grand Ch. Nighty Nite Amber was from frozen semen from To the Maxx who was the 1992 National redbone days champion...21 years ago!

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03-19-2013 08:06 PM

B Weatherford
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Southern IN
Posts: 383

Lpw

I always herd the same thing. However I think u should get Dan collected. Maybe we should try some of the 3 grand pellets from Harry. That may make a super, super, super cross. Lol. Just having fun Shane!

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03-20-2013 01:18 AM

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berger
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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:
Originally posted by tylerman
Vote to close it at the next meeting.

Thats what I would do. Why would anyone want to take the breed back 20 yrs.

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03-20-2013 01:22 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by berger
Thats what I would do. Why would anyone want to take the breed back 20 yrs.

Well why don't you check out some of my video's of pups from 20 yr old semen on the team pepsi outlaw moonlight redbone thread on the redbone forum and tell me if you still wonder why people would use 20 yr old semen. none of the pups from any of the 4 crosses can be bought and the oldest isn't 2 yrs old yet....shane

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03-20-2013 01:28 AM

jdgher
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1701

Re: artificial breeding

quote:
Originally posted by l p w
What does everyone think about breeding to semen from dogs that are dead. An old timer I know that has been in hounds for years said there was no way he would do it. He said if you have to go back to a dog you had 20 years ago you haven't been doing your breeding right. I'm no breeder by no means but he is one of the best. He said you should get better each generation. What does everyone else think.

Just my opinion but:
I think that's like saying we don't need the reverse gear in our transmission. Some roads don't always take us the way we thought they would. Sometimes we remember a road we once traveled and want to take that road again. So we need the option to backup and turn around once in a while. At least I know I like to have that option.

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03-20-2013 01:33 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: Lpw

quote:
Originally posted by B Weatherford
I always herd the same thing. However I think u should get Dan collected. Maybe we should try some of the 3 grand pellets from Harry. That may make a super, super, super cross. Lol. Just having fun Shane!

Hey...people can do what they want....but I am going to do what works. Too many people want to dismiss proven breeding techniques because the do not understand them. I write alot on here to try to explain what I am trying to do and why....but people with closed minds often have closed eyes as well....and once they make up their mind that they don't think something will work...they won't see anything but that.
But I am hunting some of the best and most impressive young redbones I have ever seen in 23 years and they came from heavy concentrated line breeding from 20 yr old semen crossed back on heavy line bred descendants of that same male. All proven winners....from a line of proven winners all the way back to that male. without frozen semen...a cross like this could never have been possible. this is a new way of breeding....not really possible until this decade and even then has only been tried like this a few times....but it has worked in every case I have studied or been a part of...and these 4 crosses are already on their way to proving this type of breeding to produce better results than most other methods. Scoff if you want to....but I have acheived the results I was hoping for....

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03-20-2013 01:38 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Re: Re: artificial breeding

quote:
Originally posted by jdgher
Just my opinion but:
I think that's like saying we don't need the reverse gear in our transmission. Some roads don't always take us the way we thought they would. Sometimes we remember a road we once traveled and want to take that road again. So we need the option to backup and turn around once in a while. At least I know I like to have that option.

Back when some of these males were alive....the type and quality of female that would cross best with them...wasn't even born yet. many of the females that will cross best on a particular male will be several generations down the line from him...probably after he is long gone. Frozen semen makes these types of concentrated line bred crosses possible that never were when the male was alive. These 4 crosses I made on select related females with the frozen semen from Billy the Kid, could infact produce close to as many titled dogs than what was achieved by all the crosses on him while he was alive....put together! and he had just under 500 pups permanatly registered while he was alive. So wouldn't that be an impressive feet.....and only possible by using this type of breeding program and frozen semen.
I am not saying it will....but I will say that at least some of these litters will produce multiple nt.ch. and gr.nt.ch. titled dogs and do it at a higher percentage than any litter he produced when alive....so write it down...cause you heard it here first. that is my prediction and none of these pups are even 2 yrs old yet.

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03-20-2013 01:47 AM

k jordan
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Registered: Feb 2011
Location: indiana
Posts: 129

you wont

have to explain yourself once everyone starts seeing these hounds in the winners circle and in the winners circle theyll be often im sure. or you wouldnt be excited or even hunting them. you know wut it takes to win and win often. some people are blind, some people are ignorant, some people are jealous, some people are so set in thier ways they dont agree with it, and some people dont care. a coondog is a coondog!!! it doesnt matter how old seman is. if its gonna produce top coonhounds then so be it. breeding to a top hounds seman thats 20 yrs old is better than breeding to a dog that can barely tree a coon like ive seen alot of guys do in this breed. keep doin what ur doin shane.

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Thank you Sir.....wasn't planning on doing it any other way

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03-20-2013 02:00 AM

rickp
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Registered: Oct 2011
Location: Utica Oklahoma
Posts: 887

I would pay huge bucks to have a red dog i had 30 years ago . I helped let that line die out .I never thought no one would keep them going . I like the Rush dog i'm hunting now but a cross between him and my old sassy female .WELL THEY SAY YOU CAN"T REPLACE OLD GOOD"UN . And I thought so highy of that female I may over looked some faults if so IM still over Looking them .

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03-20-2013 02:38 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by rickp
I would pay huge bucks to have a red dog i had 30 years ago . I helped let that line die out .I never thought no one would keep them going . I like the Rush dog i'm hunting now but a cross between him and my old sassy female .WELL THEY SAY YOU CAN"T REPLACE OLD GOOD"UN . And I thought so highy of that female I may over looked some faults if so IM still over Looking them .

How old is your Maggie Mae female Rick? Is she started yet?

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03-20-2013 02:56 AM

Larry D Walker
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2012
Location: west central indiana
Posts: 1811

Re: artificial breeding

Frozen semen has a lot of benefits, for one it can save you alot of driving using it from a dog who is now living

As for 20 year old semen I would say it depends on the dog it came from, One thing for sure its not like wine it doesnt get better with age, if it didnt work very well the first time around I would doubt it will work any better the second time LOL

quote:
Originally posted by l p w
What does everyone think about breeding to semen from dogs that are dead. An old timer I know that has been in hounds for years said there was no way he would do it. He said if you have to go back to a dog you had 20 years ago you haven't been doing your breeding right. I'm no breeder by no means but he is one of the best. He said you should get better each generation. What does everyone else think.

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03-20-2013 03:29 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

It is getting remarkably easy to tell the good knowledgeable experienced breeders with sound and proven breeding programs from those people who produce pups without any sort of plan or program. The easiest way to tell who is who is to look at who has actually produced pups that went on to make great dogs. After you separate them out...you are left with those who while they have plenty of opinions, theories and criticism....have produced little or nothing in the way of great dogs. If you want to learn about breeding talk to those who are good at it and have proven themselves.....if you just want opinions, and it doesn't matter if they are from successful breeders....well then listen to anyone who is willing to give you advise.....and who knows...maybe you will get lucky. There are breeders who post on here who don't make crosses and hope to get lucky. They understand genetics and know that it is a science and that if used correctly...it can be used to produce superior crosses. The breeders who understand genetics do not simply cross two dogs and hope for the best....but plenty of other people do this....and most of the time....hoping just wasn't enough. Study up on genetics and successful breeding if you want to be a better breeder....then you will know fact from fiction when you see it.

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03-20-2013 03:58 AM

l p w
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2008
Location: thomas springs tn
Posts: 404

breeding

I said in the post that I'm no breeder I'm a hunter. My dad is a breeder and he understands and knows what crosses work on what. We give most of our pups away to people that will hunt them and hunt and train and cull what we keep. We don't brag or blow or claim to be or have the best. But we will have a dog that will tree a coon or it will be pushing up daisys I can vouch for that. Jyst havnt ever collected a dog yet and was wanting opinions on it. May have my old dog collected when I get back home from alabama in june. Wish everyone the best in the hunts this year.

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03-20-2013 01:07 PM

Larry D Walker
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2012
Location: west central indiana
Posts: 1811

Re: breeding

Logan you and Paul keep doin what you are doin,

quote:
Originally posted by l p w
I said in the post that I'm no breeder I'm a hunter. My dad is a breeder and he understands and knows what crosses work on what. We give most of our pups away to people that will hunt them and hunt and train and cull what we keep. We don't brag or blow or claim to be or have the best. But we will have a dog that will tree a coon or it will be pushing up daisys I can vouch for that. Jyst havnt ever collected a dog yet and was wanting opinions on it. May have my old dog collected when I get back home from alabama in june. Wish everyone the best in the hunts this year.

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03-20-2013 01:24 PM

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