Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Rising Sun Maryland
Posts: 743

Why do I always hear there is no check area in regards to HH format and dogs getting a recovery say 60-80 yards away? Rule 16c says judge to start clock when pack goes silent, minus 20 if silent for a minute. Wouldnt the check area be where the dogs went silent and judge started the clock? Shouldnt the recovery be where the check was or at least close to it? I hate when we reward a dog picking up a check far away when in fact a large portion of the tract was missed. I guess i'm asking isnt the check area defined?

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
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83 views with no response? Guess no one wants to tackle it Harry. I'm not sure I do either. lol. Nonetheless, a while back I read an old article that Todd Morgan wrote about this very topic. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
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Says u have a certain time to pick up the check doesn't say anything about distance. That's where the hound smarts are susposed to take over Harry but we both know not everyone holding a card has them.
Same goes with a hole or place of refuge it doesn't say must trail up to it but common sense says if last bark is 50 yards from where these guys are calling a hole we have a issue.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Central WV
Posts: 2004

quote:

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Originally posted by Harry Warnick
Why do I always hear there is no check area in regards to HH format and dogs getting a recovery say 60-80 yards away? Rule 16c says judge to start clock when pack goes silent, minus 20 if silent for a minute. Wouldnt the check area be where the dogs went silent and judge started the clock? Shouldnt the recovery be where the check was or at least close to it? I hate when we reward a dog picking up a check far away when in fact a large portion of the tract was missed. I guess i'm asking isnt the check area defined?

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Registered: Jan 2011
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My personal opinion, there are times that a dog may possibly have trailed it a good distance in silence,or not trailed at all because the scent/track is not at a runnable state.Then opens a good distance from where they lost it, putting it back in a runnable state,thus a recovery is rewarded. Just a possible scenario is a change in cover on that particular track. The dogs may have had no problem running at one stage but after they run it out of the bryers to say a cut hay field the tracking/scenting may get worse. If in that scenario it ran down the hay field 50 yards they may not open again until they pick the track up in the bryers again. Not saying I'm right , just a thought.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Ok Harry I'll bite. Lol. I think the difference of how the rule is applied is due to lack of definition within the rule. Most look at a check area being determined by time not distance. We start a progression clock when dogs go silent and are in a check after 1 minute of silence. The track ends after 3 minutes. I have been on casts where a handler wants the 3 minute clock to continue even after all dogs come back. I feel checks are a vital part in determining an all around hound. But some want checks eliminated. I know over the years determining a check area has been a hot topic with no progress taken to better define.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Coshocton,Ohio
Posts: 2613

Allen, you don't have to look up what Todd posted, I can quote him word for word, He wasn't going to carry a tape measure with him to find the check area. LOL

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Irvine, Ky
Posts: 115

Here is one dealing with checks:
www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News/Checks...5092011092920AM
Basically the way the rule reads as I interpret it is there is no check area, the dog can pick the check up ten feet or 100 yards as long as it can do it without running rough (I.E. Swinging way out as soon as track is lost) may be wrong but that's what I'm getting from it. The way the rule reads currently a dog that gambles and gets track back up could be given the check and warned for rough running at the same time.

Thornie,
The post in which he talked about not giving measurements was on scoring lines here it is also.
http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News/QA07082013032720PM

Last edited by bunnybuster24 on 01-09-2015 at 12:48 PM

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9266

quote:

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Originally posted by thornie
Allen, you don't have to look up what Todd posted, I can quote him word for word, He wasn't going to carry a tape measure with him to find the check area. LOL

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

If folks are going to breed for dogs to bark " only when the rabbit is up and running " , how can you expect a dog to trail it out of the check area , barking , until it is up and running again?

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Registered: Oct 2014
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Posts: 27

I feel that dogs are running then they lose it you start the clock , then dog 1 comes back to were he lost the track trys to work it dog 2 swings out 3 and 4 go out anther way dog 3 and 4 are 80 yards away open up drive it I feel they don't get reworded and all dogs pull and run no one will get there 20 points back and that's that they left the check area

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Irvine, Ky
Posts: 115

quote:

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Originally posted by CBdogs
I feel that dogs are running then they lose it you start the clock , then dog 1 comes back to were he lost the track trys to work it dog 2 swings out 3 and 4 go out anther way dog 3 and 4 are 80 yards away open up drive it I feel they don't get reworded and all dogs pull and run no one will get there 20 points back and that's that they left the check area

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Registered: Oct 2014
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Posts: 27

Ok A rabbit does not jump 80 yards at a time when he is running a dog when he loses it should not go 80 or even 60 yards to find it . They should when they lose it come back to spot last tracked and work that area . That rabbit or track 80 yards away could be a different rabbit ? Why would anyone want to have a dogs that would not want to be a check dog .

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Irvine, Ky
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quote:

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Originally posted by CBdogs
Ok A rabbit does not jump 80 yards at a time when he is running a dog when he loses it should not go 80 or even 60 yards to find it . They should when they lose it come back to spot last tracked and work that area . That rabbit or track 80 yards away could be a different rabbit ? Why would anyone want to have a dogs that would not want to be a check dog .

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Registered: Oct 2014
Location:
Posts: 27

Allen lets try to improve this rule? And it would also help with ruff running

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: hagerstown, md
Posts: 20

I don't think this rule really needs any clarification or changes to it. This rule is at the heart of why we have two different formats to run. We all prefer different styles of hounds. There are some people who want a dog to work within a relatively small area in regard to the point of loss and there are others who want their dogs to go as far as needed to pick the rabbit back up. If you like the first style go run pp if you like the second go run hb. Its ok for us to value different things in our dogs just don't expect everyone else to want to conform to your ideas of what a dog should be.
As far as I'm concerned if the 3 minute clock gets my dog and he hasn't reached out to 60 yards or more he didn't do his job which was keep moving the track.
But hey that's just my idea of what a dog should do.

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Red Lion, PA
Posts: 410

If they aint swingin, they aint singin!

I believe the rule is fine the way it is. The dogs work a check from the inside out and some dogs just do it faster. Plus you have to visually see the dogs rough running or cutting or swinging to warn them and odds are in the situation mentioned above the dogs are probably out of sight. JMO

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Registered: Jan 2012
Location: iowa
Posts: 113

3/4 of the checks you are not there to see it happen. So how can you really improve the check rules??

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Registered: Jul 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 89

quote:

---

Originally posted by thornie
Allen, you don't have to look up what Todd posted, I can quote him word for word, He wasn't going to carry a tape measure with him to find the check area. LOL

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Last edited by Todd M on 01-12-2015 at 06:12 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Rising Sun Maryland
Posts: 743

The point I was trying to make was this. If using rule 16c. Isnt the check area defined? Its the area where dogs go silent, clock is started. If it results in a -20. So when I hear no check area in HH isnt that incorrect as far as where it is? How a judge awards recovery and distance isnt my question. I understand there isnt a rule rewarding a recovery from a distance point, but the check area is.

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Last edited by Harry Warnick on 01-21-2015 at 07:43 PM

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Registered: May 2010
Location: bridgeport,wv
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99.9% of the time you don't see the dogs actually break down u just hear it, everyone's hearing is different some judge distances better than other you are creating another pissing match. If u see it yes u can determine it, but if you are going off of hearing it will be a never ending argument. Leave the rule alone.

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Registered: Oct 2014
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I don't think hes asking for the rule to be changed, rule 16c has to be interpreted. I can almost always determine the area of a break down, usually 75% if not more, and 50% of the time I see them. When a dog swings around away from the area where they went silent across a path and behind the handlers and starts again no recovery should be given. The recovery should be in the vicinity of the check. No, not a tape measure distance but definitely not 100 yards away. Maybe a judgment call by judge to not award a recovery if the judge feels it is out of area.

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Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Red Lion, PA
Posts: 410

We don't see everything that goes on in the field, so who says the rabbit didn't cross that path you are talking about CBdogs? It could be a bad tracking day. If the dogs pick up and are screaming but it is a judgement call to reward the recovery and the judge doesn't then that means the 3 minute clock doesn't stop either, even though the dogs are rolling because as a judge you can't stop the 3 minute clock unless a recovery is rewarded after the dogs are in a check.

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Registered: May 2010
Location: bridgeport,wv
Posts: 489

So you are telling me cbdogs if your 100 yards away from dogs running in a thick area you can determine the check area by 10 yards ? Not trying to be rude but I disagree, we just need to use common sense as a judge, have fun, and realize that every situation can't be written in a rule book make the best judgement call and move on and realize that there dogs not robots

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: MARYLAND knoxville
Posts: 478

A dog gets a check and you don't score it lol your asking for ww3 ain't ya.

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HERE AT MID VALLEY BEAGLES WE STRIVE FOR A DOG THAT CAN AND WILL COMPETE IN ANY CONDITION.
SPEED IS GREAT ACCURACY IS EVERYTHING!
HOME OF

GRPCH GRCH MID VALLEY BUNNY BUSTER
TWO FIRST IN HB ALSO. STATE RACE WINNER 2015 PP

GRPCH HBCH MID VALLEY HURRY UP SWEET PEA
2015 MARYLAND STATE PP CHAMPION 5TH IN WORLD 2018

MID VALLEY BUNNY BUSTERS DREAM

MID VALLEY CRACK HEAD NOLA

MID VALLEY & FRAZIERS PICKING BANJO

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