Registered: Nov 2019
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 67

In my dogs I’ve had two I would consider natural young dogs that just needed a ride to the woods, not flawless unbeatable freaks but made solid, fine hounds. But most of them have been finally leave your feet at a year may tree go 10 hunts without doing anything then tree again yall know, just grind and grind, how many naturals pups do you run across, are they 1 in 10 or 1 in 100?

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Krt

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Registered: Aug 2015
Location: Vilonia Ar
Posts: 86

Iv had 1 probably raised 30+ the rest all had to be trained or wasn’t worth a flip

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Philippians 2:9-11

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: north ala.
Posts: 920

I don't know how many pups are born each year but it's probably more like 1 in a 10,000.....lol

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quote:

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Originally posted by 2ol2hunt
I don't know how many pups are born each year but it's probably more like 1 in a 10,000.....lol

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Registered: Nov 2019
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 67

quote:

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Originally posted by 2ol2hunt
I don't know how many pups are born each year but it's probably more like 1 in a 10,000.....lol

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Krt

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3433

I have a 5 year female that treed a coon alone her first night in the woods. She was 6 months and 29 days old. She trailed it 600 yards. I never laid a drag track for her. Two nights later she ran one 800 yards and treed it, A few nights later she ran one a mile, crossed 2 sloughs over my hip boots and treed him in a cypress tree in about a foot of water. I hunted her by herself the rest of the season and she treed coon coons consistently. Her sister (3 years older) was the same. They are the only two I ever saw that I would call totally natural. And both the most accurate i ever saw.

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Donald Bergeron

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Location: north ala.
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And that's the way it works best!!

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3433

I was looking forward to reading about coon hound prodigies. Some said they were 1 in 10,000, but it seems there were only 2 in the history of coon hounds and I had both of them.

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Donald Bergeron

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Registered: Nov 2019
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 67

The one I had started treeing cats and possums at just a baby a few months old, then took him with some finished dogs one night they treed two singles, he ran and treed with em and next time I took him by himself he treed a coon and was like he made a coondog that night he was straight on coons till he died, and there was no training whatsoever with this one I was as green as he was.

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Krt

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1968

quote:

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Originally posted by Purple12
The one I had started treeing cats and possums at just a baby a few months old, then took him with some finished dogs one night they treed two singles, he ran and treed with em and next time I took him by himself he treed a coon and was like he made a coondog that night he was straight on coons till he died, and there was no training whatsoever with this one I was as green as he was.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Yadkin County NC
Posts: 1671

Well said!

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5738

I really wonder how many "natural" pups wind up in the wrong hands? I suspect it's way more than we will ever know. I NEVER trained a dog or had the desire to train one myself, but my long time hunting partner was one of the best trainers I ever seen. His method was repeating or getting the desired behavior over and over until it became automatic. This type of training is exactly what our special forces use in their training, repeating the desired behavior over and over. You have to get the desired outcome by using the proper training methods, but the training must be consistant. A young dog can not achieve top performance without the opportunity. You have to hunt them more than a night or two per week, rain, snow, whatever, you have to expose them or give them the opportunity to excel. Lots of dogs NEVER get these opportunities to develope their full potential, that's on the handler not the dog. Example in mind my buddy and another one of our hunting friends had littermate pups, the one my hunting partner had was given or worked all summer at a very young age, while the other friend had rarely hunted his pup as he thought it was to young. They decided to take both pups together one night and the pup my buddy had treed 3 coons that night, while the other pup just played around. The other hunter just could not believe what my buddies pup had done as he had no idea how much time my buddy had spent giving his pup the opportunity to excel. He honestly told my buddy that he could tree a coon with a cat, still unaware of the time he had spent


working that pup over and over or consistently to achieve this outcome.
Needless to say me and my buddy got a big laugh over this. Naturals have to be given the opportuntity to develope their natural ability and nothing beat repetitive action or training for the desired outcome. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Last edited by Dave Richards on 09-08-2024 at 02:01 PM

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I personally think we use the word training dogs incorrectly, for example we can not train a dog to track or tree. Those abilities rest in the dogs genetic makeup, all we can do is to sort of mold those traits into something we desire or want the dog to do. We can encourage behavior or disencourage behavior, but we can not put the ability to do these desired results in a animal that does not possess them. A good handler just guides the animal on a path that lets them develope what they have naturally. All animals behave naturally, but have different traits that are desirable or not desirable depending on what you want. Some horse breeds are naturally gaited, but all horses can trot, run or gallop. I have Walking horse friends that do not want their horses to use the natural 4 beat gait, so they train for the big running walk gait. Our personal desires come into the equation on what traits we select in the animal we are "training", but we can not put something we want in a animal without those desired traits. The one thing common in training all different animals is the repetitive action of repeating the desired action over and over. Practice or I should say the right practice makes "perfect". Correct training definitely fine tunes the behavior we desire, but remember no one can make a silk purse out of a sows ear. No trainer or handler can put something in a animal that not there naturally. Poor trainers or handlers can sure mess up even the most "natural ". An abusive handler can mess up the most natural animal ever born. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
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I always said, how good a dog turns out depends on how little we mess him up.

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Donald Bergeron

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The naturals aka great one are born…they just need to be taken to the woods and shown what we want…

But just like professional ball players that compete against each other…practice keeps the player in peek condition…

I’m a hunter that doesn't care about competition and the really good ones don't have to be hunted very much to perform above average…i do like a dog that looks good in any company…
A hunter doesn't have to do a lot with a good dog to perform but just do the right things at the right time…

This is about how I judge the good ones…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1968

The naturals aka great one are born…they just need to be taken to the woods and shown what we want…

But just like professional ball players that compete against each other…practice keeps the player in peek condition…

I’m a hunter that doesn't care about competition and the really good ones don't have to be hunted very much to perform above average…i do like a dog that looks good in any company…
A hunter doesn't have to do a lot with a good dog to perform but just do the right things at the right time…

This is about how I judge the good ones…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5738

quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
I always said, how good a dog turns out depends on how little we mess him up.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Location: Freeport,TX
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There is no doubt, we must do our part in making a top dog…personally, I prefer a pup that has already been spoken about on this thread…the kind when taken to the woods at 4 or 6 months and they are hunting…they have that built in ability to hunt and want game…these in the right hands will become unbeatable or at least compete with the best…

When you own a great dog chances are it is one of these types…whenever I have pups I am looking for one of these…when I had a good line of dogs I raised quite a few that made good dogs…some started wanting game early and some by ten months were working well enough that I knew would make good dogs…maybe not the best but pretty good dogs…they were related and some were inbred to the same bloodline…

My biggest mistake was letting that line die out and sold…

The next set of dogs…some good and many not so good and many late starting…if a dog doesn’t show interest at a year old I’m not begging or praying for that dog to start hunting…the only chance that dog will have is to give that dog away to someone who has more patience than me…chances are this dog is a cull…
A pup or dog who never has hunted and starts hunting on the first trip is very exciting to me…I know I’ll have something to work with…natural hunting ability is exciting to see in an inexperienced dog or pup…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2019
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 67

Do you believe enough training and exposure on one that isn’t doing anything at 12 months old can ever measure up to the one who does have born natural drive to chase game?

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Krt

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I’ve seen dogs that were late starters that when they finally did start it was like flipping a light switch and they quickly developed into a good coon hound.

The long and short of it is all dogs are as individual as people are. What works for some doesn’t for others. It’s up to us humans to be able to know and recognize the signs of a dog that’s ready to start and how much to push them. I learned the hard way 45 plus years ago you can set a dog back by pushing them to hard when they’re just not ready.

On the flip side, I’ve seen dogs that started young and the owner tried to hunt them the way you would a seasoned dog. Kind of like taking a talented high school baseball player and starting him off at the major league game without getting the basics and maturity developed through the minors.

The few good trainers I’ve had opportunity to meet could read hounds and had very good understanding of how to get all the dog had to give!

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Dan

Last edited by DL NH on 09-09-2024 at 06:22 PM

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My experience has shown me that a late starting dog usually is matured so much more that it seems just like "the light switch has been flipped on", and they are much more consistent right after starting. Where when you see a young dog start there is much more inconsistency. I.e. the young dog may go 500 yards and tree a coon 1 night then the next won't leave your feet, as well as may not even get a bark the next 5 times out. Both situations require patience and not letting your expectations get ahead of your hound.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1968

A pup needs to be treated like a pup…do enough to get them to want more when you put them up…

A poor kid that gets to eat a little ice cream now and then will have pleasant thoughts about ice cream especially when he is given a small ration now and then. .

If the same kid had the opportunity to eat all he wanted every day how long would it be before he doesn’t care much for it…I follow this thought process when dealing with pups…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Jan 2016
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An old friend of mine use to say he’d a lot rather be heading out of the woods with his dogs tail up and putting a little pressure on the leash wanting more than have there tails down and acting like they’re done in.

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Dan

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
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I'm often asked what Id do different if I could turn back the clock 65 years. I started training dogs when I was 10 and now 75.
I'd select for early starting naturals, but I'd select for HIGH Intelligence first and foremost. You can't hunt a dog of average intelligence enough to reach the performance level that I desire!
The most important thing that you can teach a dog is the meaning of NO and the second most important thing is the meaning of a pat on the head.
As ever,
Ken Risley

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1968

The way I see it…

Example below;

I’m keeping two pups for now and at some point I will sell one and keep the one I like best…

At 10 weeks I put a caged coon in the middle of the yard and turn the pups loose from the down wind side…pup#1 picks his nose into the wind and cautiously heads to the cage with pup#2 following along…pup1 hackled up and backs up a little and goes to baying when the coon hisses at them…pup#2 backs off and loses interest and wonders off…I pet up pup1 and take him away from the cage…

At 3.5 months I am strolling through the woods with the pups and pup1 is leading and the other is following his sibling…I see a squirrel about 100 yards away feeding under an oak tree so I start moving in that direction…the pups are running ahead and pup1 immediately goes to giving a few barks circling around looking for that squirrel…I notice that he puts his nose on the ground once in a while but most of the time his head is up while circling…all good signs in my opinion…that sure is exciting to see…

As time progresses this pup keeps showing me what he will become one day…these type of pups are very exciting to work with…i never did say that pup2 is a cull but I’m looking for two things in my pups...a smart early starting pup that has the potential to become a great hunting dog that will look good in any company…and with the potential to produce early starters when bred to the right females…at least that is the idea…

In my mind there is a learning curve I use when keeping pups…it can be different for different strains or breeds…

I evaluate my pups using this curve…sometimes it's me setting up different scenarios to see how they react..or just by evaluation on how they handle a walkabout in the woods…nothing formal but constantly analyzing the situations at hand…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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