Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Park Falls, WI.
Posts: 487

I always hear this comment made.

"Big game hunters breed the best to the best and don't care about papers just performance."

Or something like that. I know of some hunters that don't have registered dogs and they do just that, but it seems more like they don't care about having registered dogs. I think they are saving themselves traveling more than they are breeding better dogs.

No matter what breed your top female is I can find an outstanding UKC registered big game male to breed her to, but you might have to travel and spend some money to do it.

If you don't care about papers you can breed your top female to the best dog in your area, maybe even the best dog in your group.

I think cross breeding hounds is done more because the hunter doesn't care about the papers and to save on travel and expense and searching.

I am not saying that people that cross breed don't want to put forth the effort to maintain registered dogs. I am saying that people that cross breed don't have a reason to because they don't care about papers.

The reason I started this thread is because it is often implied that registered dogs are inferior to cross breeds because we put to much emphasis on papers and I do not think this is true at all. The best big game dogs that I have hunted with were UKC registered and someone was putting in allot of effort to put the right dogs together.
Kyle

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Tonasket,Washington
Posts: 923

Amen Kyle.I have had some awesome half plott half walker dogs but as I said in another post I believe in crossing on a line and not an individual.In my post on the best ya ever hunted with I mentioned my father in laws dog Rock as one of the two best bear dogs I ever hunted with and he couldn't produce anything like himself,that really was an eye opener about the best dog to the best dog scenario.They better be out of a line of best dogs or its a crap shoot.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 800

I've seen alot more people go through more crossbreds, than registered dogs to find a good dog. That is if they were bred right, and not from somone just breeds two papers, that possibly didn't even come with the dog.

I don't know though I've seen a lot more people go through every breed of dog, cross/reg, to find a dog as good as a Walker.

The thing about cross breeds I hate so much is usually they are all perdominately Walker, but if they come out any other color, boy they sure ain't a Walker.... I know a few that have black or brindle dogs. "Boy this is the best Plott dog ever. He can run like the wind, and tree like no other." Who's he out of? "Oh a Plott gyp and some Walker, but look he's Brindle, so he took after the Plott"

Crossbreeds just aren't for me.

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

I will hunt a crossbred dog. I have seen some great ones. I know some guys north of me who have been breeding cross bred dogs for years, but it has almost developed into their own strain after a period of time. They make the crosses by breeding what they feel are the best to the best.

I will not breed a cross bred dog. The likely-hood of it reproducing itself, I feel are slim to none. So why have a great dog and tarnish it's memory by realizing that whatever it's hunting ability it couldn't pass the next test you put out for it. Maybe I am wrong, but I have never tried to breed the cross-bred dog either.

I don't think the people who run crossbred dogs look down on papered dogs. I feel it is the opposite. I feel the people with their 'PR' dogs look down on the person hunting the cross breds or even grade dogs.. I think the guys who scorn papers want to do it just to prove their "grade or cross bred" dogs hunt just as dang well as the ones that have the paper trail.

I have seen just about as many POS papered dogs as the ones who don't have papers. But maybe the mistake was made by crossing what looked good on papers and not what the hunting ability was about. Once of the most sucessfull litters I have ever seen was cross bred, but they were sired by a proven reproducer.

I know a lot of people boast "I will hunt anything, regardless of color" but when it comes down to it, it really doesn't look that way.

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

I know some guys north of me who have been breeding cross bred dogs for years, but it has almost developed into their own strain after a period of time. They make the crosses by breeding what they feel are the best to the best.


-if those guys put years into breeding a strain of crossbred dogs - really worked at it . chances are good their dogs are as good as the guy that did the same with registered dogs -

i have crossbred a few dogs before and i did it for same reason i bred registered dogs-

get pups to hunt -thats only reason i can think of to breed hounds -if i want to start a pup factory it better be something more valuable than hound pups -- pet breeds sell for2-3 times the price and only have to be healthy and cute


They better be out of a line of best dogs or its a crap shoot.

yup lot of truth in that--registered or grade- one good dog means nothing . several good dogs in a litter or alot of good dogs in a family means alot - improves the odds

i keep just about all registered dogs-- its nice to be able to trace ancestry- know how old they are- compare notes with somebody else hunting same lines ,,stuff like that --

papers are just a tool- when i hear about a good dog i want to see its pedigree-

i do think some people put too much emphathis on papers especially dogs way back on papers-

why are we talking about a certain "famous dog" thats many generations back?

lol i have a few i really look for too

so im guilty too

if its good breeding ,its showing closer up than that -

im more interested in that dogs littermates and its parents littermates than i am dogs back 6-7 generations -most important dog to look at arent on the papers --lol

only time that papers are a handicap is when somebody breeds a dog based on its papers and not on its performance-

guys that crossbreed for generations until they have their own strain are only interested in performance-- --thats not a bad thing -- i got to admire anybody that has bred and trained what they are hunting for several generations--

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Registered: Apr 2007
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 91

quote:

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Originally posted by ladycathunter
I don't think the people who run crossbred dogs look down on papered dogs. I feel it is the opposite. I feel the people with their 'PR' dogs look down on the person hunting the cross breds or even grade dogs.. I think the guys who scorn papers want to do it just to prove their "grade or cross bred" dogs hunt just as dang well as the ones that have the paper trail.

I have seen just about as many POS papered dogs as the ones who don't have papers. But maybe the mistake was made by crossing what looked good on papers and not what the hunting ability was about.

I know a lot of people boast "I will hunt anything, regardless of color" but when it comes down to it, it really doesn't look that way.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point NC
Posts: 126

the thing most people don't understand about crossbreeding is that the F1 is the most consistant. after that, no matter what you breed to, your success rate w/ the pups will almost always go down.

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Registered: Jul 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2

I Love my registered Black&Tans and plan on keeping them that way. However It has been my experience that the Better bigame dogs seem to be crosses, not usually from two registered dogs but from a line a biggame hunter has breed up themselves.
As far as pups go the first few times you make a cross can tend to be a crap shoot. Why I dont know, and if i did Know I wouldnt be a plumber, Id be an icon. Which Im not by any means.
The worst thing about the crossed up dogs is ones you loose that strain there is no going back to try and get again, its usually lost forever.

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Park Falls, WI.
Posts: 487

I have hunted with guys that have bred very poor cross breds hoping the pups came out like the grand sire. They knew who their dogs were out of even though they didn't have papers.

I saw a cross bred female that would not run a bear bred to a good cold tracker in hopes the pups would come out like the sire. You can imagine what happened.

I have seen cold trailers that did not tree very well bred to mediocre females that treed. They were hoping the pups would track and bay like the sire and tree like the dam. You can imagine what happened.

Everything that poor breeders of registered dogs do is also done by poor breeders of cross breds. There seems to be a myth that big game hunters using cross breds are harsher in their breeding decisions than big game hunters using registered dogs.

In WI. the best dogs are UKC registered. I am talking percentages. The best bear dog in WI. could easily be a cross bred, but the bulk of the best are registered.

It must be different out west. I think they have more hunters out there that don't bother with papers.

I think that hunters breeding cross breds have gotten undeserved compliments on this message board. My expierience is that they are the same as hunters of registered dogs. There are good ones and bad ones. The comments on this board imply that all hunters breeding cross breds are making wise breeding decisions beacause they are not hung up on papers. That just has not been my expierience in WI.
Kyle

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Registered: Apr 2007
Location:
Posts: 64

Kyle

My experiences in WI have been a bit different than yours. I've seen some outstanding cross bred/grade dogs and also some outstanding registered dogs. Neither one has the market cornered as far as I'm concerned.

"There seems to be a myth that big game hunters using cross breds are harsher in their breeding decisions than big game hunters using registered dogs."

While I don't really know about breeding decisions, I can guarantee you that cross bred/grade pups are culled much harder than registered dogs. If they don't perform to the owners expectations they usually don't stick around. Not many guys are willing to do that with a $250 pup. I know that I give those pups a lot more chances than a freebie from a good cross.

Now anyone who tells me purchasing a registered pup is a quicker/guaranteed way to get good dogs will really have to convince me. We've put a lot of time/money in pups from registered dogs (whos parents/grandparents were all very good bear dogs) and come up with duds. We've done the same and came up with some good pups too, though. But it's all a crap shoot, the only difference with registered dogs is it's easier to pin down what didn't work (If all the papers are legit).

In any case registered/grade/cross you've got to hunt hard and breed on perfomance and the ability to pass it on. If you don't you'll end up not where you want to be. Don't get hung up on one line/breed etc if another is kicking butt and taking names.

Last edited by Nolte on 08-10-2007 at 04:22 PM

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

I gess were alittle differnt when it comes to breeding. It takes us well over a year to decide what to breed too. When we bred to "Kong" after working up a 10 Gen. Ped. and checking the Inbred Coe. ect. I made 2 trips just to look him over and the one to Breed to him.. That added up to well over $1000.00 in Gas and Stud Fee. Same thing when we were looking for just the Right Blue Hound. One year looking him over doing all the peds then breeding to him.. We have also decided that when someone buys one of our hound pups for $650 that the work harder over that pup and take good care of it. And yes we do give some away but only to the Finest Hound trainers and Guides. Plus every year we give a pup away to a Kid that wants to start hunting..

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quote:

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Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
We have also decided that when someone buys one of our hound pups for $650 that the work harder over that pup and take good care of it.

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

Non Taken Just as long as we keep Selling Out we will continue to produce some of the Finest Big Game Hound Out their. With a Garantee of Preformance

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

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PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

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Registered: May 2006
Location: Southern Oregon
Posts: 1344

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyle W. Graf

I think that hunters breeding cross breds have gotten undeserved compliments on this message board. My expierience is that they are the same as hunters of registered dogs. There are good ones and bad ones. The comments on this board imply that all hunters breeding cross breds are making wise breeding decisions beacause they are not hung up on papers. That just has not been my expierience in WI.
Kyle

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There are a lot of people out west who don't care about papers.. I didn't know that there was such things as the UKC until I bought my first papered dog almost 2 years ago...

And there are a lot of people breeding whatever to whatever that shouldn't be allowed to own a hound let alone make the decision to let it pro-create.. But don't think all cross-bred dogs are not worth their feed. Some of the most well known cat hunters out here have their own little "breeding" program that they have put a lot of time into. And cull hard what doesn't make it.

And the people who put a lot of time, hunting and research into their papered dogs are doing it the right way too.. I am not saying that papered dogs aren't as good as cross-bred dogs.. Not by any means.. There are plenty of good and bad in both..

I just recently pi$$ed some guy off who wanted to buy one of my cross-bred pups.. A female.. He told me if she turns out he wanted to breed her and create his own little pack of hunting dogs.. I told him all cross-bred females that left my place must be spayed. They are hunting dogs, not puppy factories.. You can imagine the names I got called Like I said, I will feed and hunt a cross-bred dogs. I will let my dogs have a litter of them for one reason.. To get dogs that put game up trees.. I will keep a pup out of every litter that is born on my place.. A planned breeding or unplanned.. And cull hard on what doesn't make it.. But I don't want someone taking a pup from me and making uneducated decisions about it... But that is just me....

BTW.. I am not one of the people who will run anything.. Just a darn near 'bout, but there is one breed I won't touch with a 10 foot pole LOL..

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OutWest Big Game Hounds

You've only got 3 choices in life, give in, give up, or give it all you got.

Last edited by Melanie H. on 08-10-2007 at 08:05 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:

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Originally posted by Majestic Tree H
Non Taken Just as long as we keep Selling Out we will continue to produce some of the Finest Big Game Hound Out their. With a Garantee of Preformance

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

The only Eastern sales have been in NC. SC. Fla. Our Main sales are to Outfitter and Guide Services Ut., NM, AZ, Wyo, Co and Our largest growing sales are in B.C. and the Northwest Teriotory.
Your welcome to contact any of our clients to discuss Performance.

Bearhunter if you would like to run with me just jump on 81 south to New Market .. We run alone with only our pack sometime some guys will dump on us but not to often.. Heck if we put one up great and if we get beat in a race well thats great too..

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 2708

Majestics can never be the premier big game dog because of what it takes to make them. Sure, I like the looks of them but...they must have external blood from blooded hounds constantly being bred back to. Is there anyone out there that are running "majestics" that are 4th and 5th generation with no registered hound blood crossed back into it? Of course not, it's impossible. Again, some are probably nice dogs but lets not forget exatly what they are..cross breeds from 2 other already proven breeds. Chocolate and peanut butter taste great mixed together, but thats not reinventing or improving chocolate or peanut butter! Not trying to be insulting, I'd even try a pup if I had one given to me but...lets keep in mind just what they are....it's not a new breed, nor is the labradoodle.

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

mjflores I really think you should do some reading !! You havent a clue about Bloodhounds and you are unaware that they tree by statments you have made in the past. I am sorry you have not found the correct lines of bloodhound for your crosses. Majestic lines have been running a long time ! the Lee Brothers ran the same hounds, Bill Green ran the same hounds. And usualy you donot need to ever go bak to the Bloodhound once you have interoduced it. Here is a link to Some that has been running the same line of their own Majestic for 30 years.
http://www.lancasterfamilyhunting.com/ as far as I know both of you have never run against a Majestic .. I ask you to please come and try Ours.

But as long as we have Clients well I gess it really does'nt matter.
If you would like to try one of our hounds please send a $200 deposit for Next year Litters.

And Bearhunter our Started/Finished 18-24 month hounds sell from $4500- $6000.
and

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

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Registered: Apr 2007
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 91

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyle W. Graf
In WI. the best dogs are UKC registered. I am talking percentages. The best bear dog in WI. could easily be a cross bred, but the bulk of the best are registered.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

Quick Question
Have you ever had the chance to Hunt with Dale Lee ?

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Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

No but I have read I think every thing ever published by the Lee's Bill Green, Wiley Carroll Darril Fry, Jim Bundrick, Terrell Shelley, Cal Allen. Ofcourse alot of them are rather tight liped about their breeding but if you cross reference alot of them you can get asience their breeding methods.. Hell I'am almost 50 years old so I have had some time to Read and run Hounds..

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

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Thats to Bad, Dale was a fine hunter and a Ball to hunt with. I got to hunt with Dale in Wi. for about a week. I think a lot of people might be shocked to see what Dale bred to and bought pups from while he was there.
Old Dale could tell better stories than anyone I have ever run across.
Jess

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Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

Gezz Jess You must be alittle older than dirt also LOL.. By what I have read Dale Kinda Liked those Old Redtick English !!

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Steve Morrow "Saltlick Majestic's"
"Never Have Hounds Or Kids And You Won't Get Your Heart Broke"!!

540-421-2875

PR, Saltlick's Blue Misty Linga "Bluetick Coonhound"

French X American Hounds

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
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LOL
Yes Dale seemed to like Redticks Just fine.
Jess

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Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Majestic Tree H


Bearhunter if you would like to run with me just jump on 81 south to New Market .. We run alone with only our pack sometime some guys will dump on us but not to often.. Heck if we put one up great and if we get beat in a race well thats great too..

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