Registered: Jan 2011
Location: thornton, ontario, canada
Posts: 441

agree not pure. but the old boy mr. jones believed they were pure mt dogs . that had been in his family for so many years that he considered them pure .heck i wasnt going to bust his bubble or debate it with him.my only concern was to head to the bush and see the ability of the parents of the pups i bought.they were very good.iam sure pure is close now or will be in the next so many years to come with mt. cur guys doing d.n.a. on there familys of dogs. you would think d.n.a. could sort out pure or not pure in 20 or so years of breeding mt. cur dogs.i have had the same line of cc dogs for 35 years with a few crosses do i consider them pure.cant answer that question because the real inbred ones might be more pure than the less inbred. is pure important probaly not. if it goes hand and hand with ability it might be worth some thing for the guy breeding his own dogs.

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Registered: Jul 2011
Location: tennessee
Posts: 2444

i agree, what they do in the woods is more important than whats on paper. i know back years ago that some of the papers wasnt right on what we call the foundation stock of curs, there was a certain stud dog that couldnt produce pups so they used a brother to finley river chief and put the stud cur name down as sire. theres a few of them cur pups from that walker are now in the cur hall of fame. i never cared what they was out of as long as they would put the meat up the bush lol.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: N.E. Arkansas
Posts: 1042

quote:

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Originally posted by nccatfisher
Yep, and as long as you aren't buying something from them they will be about as receptive as the rest of your KSBA buddys were at your last hunt. Remember, more people showed up with dogs on chains than they did to hunt?

I thought you learned you lesson then, should have known better.

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Location: N.E. Arkansas
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quote:

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Originally posted by orchidhunter
"Is'nt that the reason why the OMCBA was formed, to keep the Mountain Cur from going extinct? yes, but they are not doing a good job of it. It's about to the point that the OMCBA dogs are nothing more than big feist. But truth be known, it's this comp hunting that has done most harm to a once versatile breed of dogs. Me and fdm are here to tell you they are going fast, and now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the Mtn. Cur.

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Loyd McIntire

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I see quite a lot of variation in the mtn cur breeds but not just omcba.

I believe it has to do with personal preference. I have seen kennels full of feist looking mtn curs and I have seen where a breeder culls all dogs over 40 pounds...meaning sells them or gives them away to big game hunters...

We also have hunters that want a dog to hunt out 50-100 yards because of smaller plots these days and that is a cull to me for what I need...

We also have dogs that will range out 1000 yards or more and I have had those and they can get the job done but that type of dog is almost too much dog for me...

We have dogs that range out 3 to 5 hundred yards and that is what I like. But I like a dog that will go where ever to stop that hog once he winds a hog or hits a good track. These dogs will hunt deeper if the hunter stops but as long as we move the dogs keep working in that 3 -5 loop/circle. I know a lot has to do with the style the handler uses as to how some of these dogs hunt...

If I see fresh hog sign I expect my dog to cut and slash and find the exit tracks...

I like the females to be 45-50 pounds and males to be 55-60 pounds with a decent ear and the dog muscled up with a tight flank and want to see speed and agility written all over that dog and I like the dog to be slick coated with a fine undercoat and tight feet. I like a fast track dog that can wind a long ways or take a decent track and opens 2 or 3 times when locating a track... this pulls the other dogs in to pack up and then said dog shuts up and will only open when the game is jumped...This dog looks like a cross from a hound and cur but that is how the old time mtn curs are supposed to look like in my opinion and also hunt like I described...

I am not a tree dog man but I like hog dogs and the type of mtn cur I described makes one heck of a hog dog...but it is frustrating to find the right breeder.

I raised my own strain from about 1990 to 2007 and I used Kemmer (mainly gold nugget and a few other well known kemmer dogs) and OMCBA bred dogs of the Fred Manning line...The female I owned and about started my line with was sired by Texas Smoke and a Texas Smoke daughter. These were big hard hunting dogs with a ton of grit...

Not trying to stir the pot here just throwing some legitimate obstacles out there that I see or have seen...

I am an ambassador for the mtn cur as hog dogs but I suspect when some of these youngsters look up mtn curs and see oversized feist then they look elsewhere. I would too if I were in there shoes...

This is why I said maybe we need to catagorize several type of mtn cur so that folks can find the right breeder for what they are wanting in a mtn cur...We would have to have at least 2 standards that are more specific so that we can take some of the variation out and this would make it a lot easier for potential buyers...

I remember when "FULL CRY" was mostly about hounds and I also remember when lots of hunters complained about how the competition circuit messed up some hunting hound breeds and also saw it in the retriever and other bird dog groups and some actually changed breeds from hound to cur for that one reason...and of course others changed because the hunting spots are getting smaller because of pupulation growth. The bird dog folks follwed suit because they wanted a dog that hunted with them and not just hunt for the dog.

I am not speaking bad against competition hunting at all but just repeating what quite a few articles were about in those days and competition has its place for every hunting breed.

Now when we open a FULL CRY magazine and we see more cur breeds than hound breeds... or just as many...

I do know we have to adapt to the changing environment or we will go by the wayside...

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: N.E. Arkansas
Posts: 1042

quote:

---

Originally posted by Reuben
I see quite a lot of variation in the mtn cur breeds but not just omcba.

I believe it has to do with personal preference. I have seen kennels full of feist looking mtn curs and I have seen where a breeder culls all dogs over 40 pounds...meaning sells them or gives them away to big game hunters...

We also have hunters that want a dog to hunt out 50-100 yards because of smaller plots these days and that is a cull to me for what I need...

We also have dogs that will range out 1000 yards or more and I have had those and they can get the job done but that type of dog is almost too much dog for me...

We have dogs that range out 3 to 5 hundred yards and that is what I like. But I like a dog that will go where ever to stop that hog once he winds a hog or hits a good track. These dogs will hunt deeper if the hunter stops but as long as we move the dogs keep working in that 3 -5 loop/circle. I know a lot has to do with the style the handler uses as to how some of these dogs hunt...

If I see fresh hog sign I expect my dog to cut and slash and find the exit tracks...

I like the females to be 45-50 pounds and males to be 55-60 pounds with a decent ear and the dog muscled up with a tight flank and want to see speed and agility written all over that dog and I like the dog to be slick coated with a fine undercoat and tight feet. I like a fast track dog that can wind a long ways or take a decent track and opens 2 or 3 times when locating a track... this pulls the other dogs in to pack up and then said dog shuts up and will only open when the game is jumped...This dog looks like a cross from a hound and cur but that is how the old time mtn curs are supposed to look like in my opinion and also hunt like I described...

I am not a tree dog man but I like hog dogs and the type of mtn cur I described makes one heck of a hog dog...but it is frustrating to find the right breeder.

I raised my own strain from about 1990 to 2007 and I used Kemmer (mainly gold nugget and a few other well known kemmer dogs) and OMCBA bred dogs of the Fred Manning line...The female I owned and about started my line with was sired by Texas Smoke and a Texas Smoke daughter. These were big hard hunting dogs with a ton of grit...

Not trying to stir the pot here just throwing some legitimate obstacles out there that I see or have seen...

I am an ambassador for the mtn cur as hog dogs but I suspect when some of these youngsters look up mtn curs and see oversized feist then they look elsewhere. I would too if I were in there shoes...

This is why I said maybe we need to catagorize several type of mtn cur so that folks can find the right breeder for what they are wanting in a mtn cur...We would have to have at least 2 standards that are more specific so that we can take some of the variation out and this would make it a lot easier for potential buyers...

I remember when "FULL CRY" was mostly about hounds and I also remember when lots of hunters complained about how the competition circuit messed up some hunting hound breeds and also saw it in the retriever and other bird dog groups and some actually changed breeds from hound to cur for that one reason...and of course others changed because the hunting spots are getting smaller because of pupulation growth. The bird dog folks follwed suit because they wanted a dog that hunted with them and not just hunt for the dog.

I am not speaking bad against competition hunting at all but just repeating what quite a few articles were about in those days and competition has its place for every hunting breed.

Now when we open a FULL CRY magazine and we see more cur breeds than hound breeds... or just as many...

I do know we have to adapt to the changing environment or we will go by the wayside...

---

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Loyd McIntire

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Location: thornton, ontario, canada
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competition hunting. competition in general brings the cream to the top. wether its track hockey football horses dogs the list is long. for the life of me i cant understand how it can bring down any breed of dog.it should bring all breeds up a higher level in ability the same as it does in so many other sports.dont forget many try out for the team and dont make it because there not good enough. i would support standards in any breed as long as they put ability in the bush first, ps. skeets on the bush topic. go to your room. lol.i agree theres much i can learn on rules etc. in competition hunting, but those rules will never hold my dog back when the tail gate is dropped. hes ability will earn respect. same as your dog will get my respect on his ability. well since the canadian dollar is a penny higher thats my two cents worth on that topic.

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Williamstown ky
Posts: 486

quote:

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Originally posted by canadian curs
competition hunting. competition in general brings the cream to the top. wether its track hockey football horses dogs the list is long. for the life of me i cant understand how it can bring down any breed of dog.it should bring all breeds up a higher level in ability the same as it does in so many other sports.dont forget many try out for the team and dont make it because there not good enough. i would support standards in any breed as long as they put ability in the bush first, ps. skeets on the bush topic. go to your room. lol.i agree theres much i can learn on rules etc. in competition hunting, but those rules will never hold my dog back when the tail gate is dropped. hes ability will earn respect. same as your dog will get my respect on his ability. well since the canadian dollar is a penny higher thats my two cents worth on that topic.

---

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Registered: Nov 2009
Location: Corinth, Ms
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What's funny to me is that orchidhunter posts anything that actually gets taken seriously.

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Location: Williamstown ky
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quote:

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Originally posted by northmsLee
What's funny to me is that orchidhunter posts anything that actually gets taken seriously.

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: thornton, ontario, canada
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in my case it wasnt about him. it was the many other posts i have read that kinda believe compt. hunting has hurt many breeds of tree dogs.moodyhound i understand what your saying about dogs that look alot better in a group.i understand there is draw backs in every sport and we tend to think the refs. make some bad calls which for today the best team lost. but in most case the best player or best team wont be held back when the season is over they will come out the champs.i guess dogs need to be put in at least 12 hunts to prove there great worth and over come the kinks your explaning to me. question if were squrr hunting and another dog smokes a deer for a short race and pulls up treed on a squrr. and the judge sees all this does that dog get minus points.another question you cross your english with your fiest and kick out good dogs.the second cross do you go back to the english or go back to the fiest or both.

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Registered: Aug 2010
Location: Troy NC
Posts: 2288

most treeing curs breeders today are line breeding and only out crossing when needed. i know that i line breeding and crossing onto uncles, aunts, etc. staying close but not to close. the purpose of the treeing cur is not to out cross every breeding. but rather to take hound and cur and develop what you like and cross back to build your line. Moody, Kovac's Doyle Sherman and others have been line breeding their lines of treeing curs for years. there are several strain of treeing curs now just like the mt curs. treeing cur does not alway mean half hound half cur. that may have been the start of the program but most you see are consistent lines of dogs. i know i started with the amazing line. all my dogs are direct from the kovac's and i have been line breeding myself. i have breed my male to several hound, curs for others.

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Williamstown ky
Posts: 486

quote:

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question if were squrr hunting and another dog smokes a deer for a short race and pulls up treed on a squrr. and the judge sees all this does that dog get minus points.another question you cross your english with your fiest and kick out good dogs.the second cross do you go back to the english or go back to the fiest or both. [/B]

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Registered: Dec 2010
Location: south east missouri
Posts: 10

When the OMCBA was first formed, the Mountain Cur was'nt looked at like a pure bred dog, but it was looked at as a type of dog used for hunting in the mountains, and there were variations between the different types of Mountain Curs people kept back in the mountains, even way back then.

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: thornton, ontario, canada
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moody thanks.i guess in most cases it just about impossibe to compare other sports with dog hunts.as other sports are always in reach of our eye sight in most cases. hmm maybe in 20 years from now all dogs in a cast would have to wear a camera that goes back to a lap top that sits on the judges lap.thats far fetched but who knows.amazing this is a long shot but do you have any of claude thomas snappy blood back in your blood line.many years ago i raised and trainned snappy and gave him as a gift to my good friens claude. at one year old snappy was a hell of a coon and squrr dog. i heard amy bred to snappy 2 or 3 times but not sure how many times.this year so far i have trainned 3 litter mates very line bred to snappys mother, two are out standing the third one did run and tree but wasnt what i like so hes down. i still have 3 more brothers to train one for sure will be a cracker time will tell if the other 2 will make what i like.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1594

There may have been a time that you could have seen the dogs on a squirrel cast the majority of the time. Now they want them to be gone from sight the minute you click them off the lead. That isn't to say that it would be hard to catch them running a deer then fall treed on a squirrel. For the most part every cur I have ever seen opened on a deer but didn't on a squirrel so it would be easy enough to catch them. There are a few curs that open on squirrels but that isn't the norm, not to mention squirrel hunts are carried on during the day as opposed to coon hunts at night.

There has been many issues about comp. hunts ruining breeds. Do comp. hunts ruin breeds? Absolutely not, breeders do. Bench shows affect breeds much much more than comp hunts do. When you breed for looks prior to performance then you get in trouble. That along with the pet trade has ruined more hunting breeds than any comp. hunts ever have.

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Registered: Jan 2011
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correction. ed roggen bred snappy from two cc dogs. then i trainned him.etc. funny how we forget 50 years ago up here everybody had a hunting dog. to day 99 percent have house dogs. you make good points.i just finished 3 months vac. and spent alot of time in the bush alone me and my dogs, not once did i run into another hunter with dogs.coon and squrr hunters are a rare thing in the area i live in. hey hows the black inbred comming along.he seemed special from the first picture i seen of him.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1594

quote:

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Originally posted by canadian curs
correction. ed roggen bred snappy from two cc dogs. then i trainned him.etc. funny how we forget 50 years ago up here everybody had a hunting dog. to day 99 percent have house dogs. you make good points.i just finished 3 months vac. and spent alot of time in the bush alone me and my dogs, not once did i run into another hunter with dogs.coon and squrr hunters are a rare thing in the area i live in. hey hows the black inbred comming along.he seemed special from the first picture i seen of him.

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I almost gave up on him two weeks ago, he pissed me off so bad I was in the process of talking to someone about giving him away. He is fiercely independent. To the point I had to tie him to the tree when he was young to get him to even tree with another dog, he would tree on his own but wanted no part of being around another dog.

I am no comp hunter anymore and go to plenty of split trees so I want mine to back another dog, not leave what they are doing if they have something going and me2 but back if nothing is going on. Well he doesn't care a whole lot about squirrels in the first place, he will tree them but coons are his preference at this point.

I went squirrel hunting 2 weeks ago and there were 2 other dogs in the crowd. He NEVER got closer than 300 yds and once was 1 mile from us all day. It was obvious he wasn't going to be around another dog. He doesn't do that on coon thank goodness. He may leave out the opposite direction of another dog but will usually hunt within a few hundred yards of it and for sure won't intentionally leave the country.

I stood his butt up for two weeks and seriously considered getting rid of him as I have a 6 mos old that is doing great on both squirrel and coon. I has the other dog on my mind all weekend so when I got back home today I let him out and made a short round with him. He put 5 squirrels up in less than an hour and did it in style. I may wind up having to squirrel hunt him solo the rest of his life if he doesn't tone down the independence but there is no way I can get rid of him as well as he does on coons and after the show he put on on squirrels this evening.

He is only 17 mos old at this time so I still have plenty of time to work on him anyway.

Here is some recent coon hunting pics of him'

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Last edited by nccatfisher on 12-12-2011 at 05:10 AM

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: thornton, ontario, canada
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dont take this as me being a smart ass knowing it all.but i believe this will solve his problem over the years i trainned truck loads of dogs. now 99 percent of my american friends wont do this because they dont want there dog to get biten.take a live coon cut it out in a open field let him and a couple other dogs catch it and kill it. a couple of these and he will honour the other dogs on there first bark. it might take 3 coon. dont hunt him till after hes done the 3 coon. i think it will also pull him in closer on the squrr hunting the minute he hears the other dogs tree.i will add many of the coon have been 30 to 15 pounds if thats what i catch that day thats what i use. i believe a dog must hate coon with a passion to be a really top coon dog. i have had many 35 pound femles kill a coon in a heart beat after they learned to grab them by the neck. and never get biten. because of him being inbred i still say he will turn out to be a SUPER REPRODUCER. i have been inbreeding racing pigeons and these cc dogs for 45 years and from the pictures and the way hes bred to me he sure looks the type will kick out a real high percent of top dogs. if you try the live coon let me know if it works for him

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: thornton, ontario, canada
Posts: 441

i forgot something. if you do it after its done put the dogs away. 2 0r 3 hrs later. take the dogs back out use the same coon run a drag put it up a tree. dont let the see you running the drag. keep him on a leash till he hits the track then cut him off let out the other 2 dogs. this will be all day time so you will see everything. again do this in a open field and drag the coon to a fence row or as yous call it a hedge row. if you can do it 3 times that day all the better. as that means he has buddy up 3 times with the other dogs in one day

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1594

Ok, I am asking you like a newbie. He can run and tree his own coon at this point, do I still need to do the drag after I have let the caged coons out with other dogs?

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"It has been said by many old timers that without Mountain Curs, or bear dogs, the Southern Mountains could not have been settled by the pioneers. Mountain Curs were a necessity for the frontier family. They guarded the family against wild animals and other dangers and caught, treed and holed animals for the family food."(from the OMCBA websight) well, if the folks that settled the Southern Mountains had to use today's MC , which has now been turned into just a tree dog thats man shy, dog shy and no longer the all around dog, that could do it all from hunting small and big game,flushing upland game birds,herding,guarding live stock,the home,and it's family.What a shame to see such a versatile breed of dog pass away.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 1594

quote:

---

Originally posted by orchidhunter
"It has been said by many old timers that without Mountain Curs, or bear dogs, the Southern Mountains could not have been settled by the pioneers. Mountain Curs were a necessity for the frontier family. They guarded the family against wild animals and other dangers and caught, treed and holed animals for the family food."(from the OMCBA websight) well, if the folks that settled the Southern Mountains had to use today's MC , which has now been turned into just a tree dog thats man shy, dog shy and no longer the all around dog, that could do it all from hunting small and big game,flushing upland game birds,herding,guarding live stock,the home,and it's family.What a shame to see such a versatile breed of dog pass away.

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You had to get you one them Kemmer " Jake" dogs for a yard dog as the OMCBA dogs just don't have it in them any more.

Last edited by orchidhunter on 12-12-2011 at 04:32 PM

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You may need to talk to Rodger Bennett about that, as usual you don't know you butt from a hole in the ground. Jake is the only dog I own that has Streak in him, 25%, but I would like to see you put your hands on him. He isn't kemmer registered.

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