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On this board we read all the time about the natural hound that just needs put in the woods and they're doing it right pretty quickly so all the training that most hunters want to do is Overkill. Train to handle but training to tree coons I am not so sure about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by 2ol2hunt
On this board we read all the time about the natural hound that just needs put in the woods and they're doing it right pretty quickly so all the training that most hunters want to do is Overkill. Train to handle but training to tree coons I am not so sure about.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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For those that like to train a pup without a good dog to at least show the pup what game to hunt is doing it the hard way...

Showing the pup the game and setting the stage for the pup to like baying and chasing the game is a big positive...liking is the key word here...the pup needs to know what game he will hunt and have the confidence to want it...doing this first and the pup will be ready for the woods...
Cast a seasoned dog and turn the pup to him...make sure there are plenty of coon in the area...you want the pup to get on a coon right away and not a deer...

Getting on a deer right off is a set back in my opinion...

And shocking the pup right off the first time in the woods could ruin the pup forever especially if he is on track to making a top dog one day because these pups tend to be the intelligent ones...the inexperienced hunter is thinking he has the opportunity to break the pup off deer so he shocks him...the pup feels the pain and is thinking the woods is a bad place to be in and will come with tucked tail to the hunter and the pup will never venture back into the woods again...the hunter doesn’t even know why the pup quit hunting and it goes downhill from there...eventually he culls the pup...

I like easy...I try to do the right things at the right time...

Bottom line... I want my pups to know what they are hunting for and liking to antagonize the preferred game before stepping in the woods to starting the real training sessions to hunt...seems to me this is the right way but that is my opinion...

I did give an example on how a pup with lots of potential to be a top dog one day on how it could be ruined...there are quite a few ways on what can potentially set a pup back...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
For those that like to train a pup without a good dog to at least show the pup what game to hunt is doing it the hard way...

Showing the pup the game and setting the stage for the pup to like baying and chasing the game is a big positive...liking is the key word here...the pup needs to know what game he will hunt and have the confidence to want it...doing this first and the pup will be ready for the woods...
Cast a seasoned dog and turn the pup to him...make sure there are plenty of coon in the area...you want the pup to get on a coon right away and not a deer...

Getting on a deer right off is a set back in my opinion...

And shocking the pup right off the first time in the woods could ruin the pup forever especially if he is on track to making a top dog one day because these pups tend to be the intelligent ones...the inexperienced hunter is thinking he has the opportunity to break the pup off deer so he shocks him...the pup feels the pain and is thinking the woods is a bad place to be in and will come with tucked tail to the hunter and the pup will never venture back into the woods again...the hunter doesn’t even know why the pup quit hunting and it goes downhill from there...eventually he culls the pup...

I like easy...I try to do the right things at the right time...

Bottom line... I want my pups to know what they are hunting for and liking to antagonize the preferred game before stepping in the woods to starting the real training sessions to hunt...seems to me this is the right way but that is my opinion...

I did give an example on how a pup with lots of potential to be a top dog one day on how it could be ruined...there are quite a few ways on what can potentially set a pup back...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
Natural is one thing, such as tracking and treeing, even hunting style, but it's the other things that a good handler does that helps separate the dogs. Knowing when and how to CORRECT unwanted behavior or to reinforce desired behavior certainly helps some dogs to excel at treeing coons. Dave

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Rebecca Agee

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As far as starting a pup with an older dog when done right you don't end up with a pack dog. And the pups I've done this way came along faster because they figured out things faster from its mentor. The key is to let the pup tag along untill it starts to tree with the old dog. Then hunt the pup alone. Only hunt it with the old dog here and there when you see something it's having a hard time with, that the old dog is good at. I try to set up the hunt where the pups problem will happen, and the old dog works it. I only hunt it with the old dog the one nite. I don't hunt with friends and there dogs, if I do, I tell them will cut out every other drop, but not together. When I feel the dog is just about ready for the hunts then I call friends to hunt with that I know there dog isen't going to be ill at the tree or trashy. Just so the dog get use to being in the woods with strange dogs. I also use this time to cast my dog in the woods after my friends dog is already treed. To make sure they don't just run in and cover. They know there is a differnce in starting the same track together and treeing on the same tree. From being cut in the woods with a dog already treed.

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Rebecca Agee

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quote:

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Originally posted by novicane65
I'm not a fan of starting a pup with an old dog. I want a dog to show that its independent. I like for a dog to be indifferent towards others. And for the record I have hunted with very few dogs I like that were started with other dogs. A bunch of pups get hauled to the woods too young age wise and maturity wise to hunt with an old dog. And those pups learn to "me too" when started with the older dogs. Is starting a pup alone "harder" not really if you set the pup up for success. You can't just take it hunting without showing it what it should be chasing and expect it to just start treeing coons the first night in the woods.

Me personally, I'll let a pup run whatever their hearts desire for the first year its treeing coons. 80% of those pups naturally break themselves from trash. I hate seeing guys shock pups off any game until they know what they should be chasing.


So far 1 of the best young dogs I've hunted with went from being a 11 month old pup that had never treed a coon, at 13 months was like a seasoned vet 75% of the time. She'd have a few nights here n there that she struggled to get hooked but she looked darn good most nights.

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This is how the big winner's start them out!

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Let them smell where coons were at!

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To be continued!

Last edited by edwardfasteddy on 12-18-2020 at 05:52 AM

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I kind of do the same as Reuben seeing what pups are leaders. But what I do is start pairing pups up. I take a leader and put them with a less confident pup. Then take two at a time. It takes more time in the woods to get them all there every day but well worth it. I do switch up the pairs often to keep them from depending on each other. What I have seen out of this is when you do pair up to leaders it can turn into a major competition which can be good or bad. I had two really good males when they got to where they finished every track ( 8 months old) you couldn't hunt them together. They were slick treeing idiots. Alone or with any other dog they were good about having a coon. One 80% the other almost perfect. The good to it is the leaders learn from each other and helps them become more of a balanced hound.

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Rebecca Agee

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Preacher Tom - I predict Edward Fast Eddy is about to comprehensively answer your training process questions.
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Preach on Eddy......your speaking the truth.

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Leon

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In my limited experience the dogs bred for any discipline that’s going to be exceptional aren’t always the first choice of the average handlers.
I’ve noticed that the hounds that are exceptional seem to have more desire to catch game on the ground then to just get treed, they don’t just run faster because of being athletic, they run faster because of their desire to catch their prey, they tree because they have enough intelligence to know their prey is in the tree. This type of dogs usually take pressure when treed because they know the track has ended.

Dogs that tree Coon are very common and without any special ability but exceptional dogs are very rare but what’s even more rare are hunters that recognize the pup with the extra drive that it takes to be exceptional, it’s nearly impossible to find a hunter to spend the time to hunt the special pup hard enough where the full potential of the pup can be developed.
I’m convinced the demanding knowledgable hunters will be hunting the best dogs because they know the difference between barking up a tree where a Coon is setting than an exceptional coondog.

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V Cannon for someone with "limited experience" you told the absolute truth.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkinriver
V Cannon for someone with "limited experience" you told the absolute truth.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
I agree...

I remember reading a few posts on another forum where someone was selling a pup reasonably because it was too trashy running all kinds of junk...sounded like a pup I would have bought if I had been close enough...

This one is not about dogs...years ago I had two friends that hunted off horseback...one of the guys had an exceptional horse that was well trained and always did what was asked of him...the other guy had a horse that would stop once he decided he had enough and wouldn’t move forward...instead of moving forward he would start spinning and the guy would be fighting the reins and spurring, he also had the horse backing up...I don’t know much about horses but I thought he needed a new horse...

We went hunting on a Sunday and the next Wednesday the guy with the good horse died in a car accident...
His best friend got the good horse...and since he now had a good horse he got rid of his horse that gave him trouble...

Well the next time we went hunting the good horse started acting exactly like the horse that would stop and not move forward but would spin and backup...
Right then and there I realized the horses weren’t the problem...

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

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Great ones are born. Common ones are trained

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quote:

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Originally posted by high ridge
Great ones are born. Common ones are trained

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Tom Wood

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How were they trained is a good question and I think there can be different ways of training...

The more important question needs to be...how were they chosen?

Many folks will tell you close you eyes and pick a pup...because it’s like gambling...no different than rolling the dice...

I don’t spend much time on a pup...a pup is on a progression curve and if he is not meeting it chances are that pup won’t be taking valuable space in my back yard...

8 week old pups usually have the same personalities as the 2 or 3 year old great hunting dogs...a stand-offish demeanor...an above it all attitude...he may spend more time alone and exploring yet can play just as well as the other pups...when you raise you own litters keep the four pups you perceive to be the better ones and as time progresses, usually in a period of 6 to 10 months sell or give away the few that progressing well...chances are you be happy with the results...the breeding pair must be excellent as well as the grand parents and great grandparents if at all possible...

To have a great dog you will need a pup that is born with the ability to be great...

Like my footer says...great dogs don’t need to be fed a lot of tracks to make a dog we can be proud of...I reckon making a competition dog that wins consistently will need more training but that is understandable...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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I'm convinced you can train any dog but not sure if you can train most dog owners... Reuben, you said.. Many folks will tell you close you eyes and pick a pup...because it’s like gambling...no different than rolling the dice... This is a quote from John Wicke and I'm no fan of John Wicke.. LOL!

Last edited by edwardfasteddy on 12-19-2020 at 11:23 AM

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Some guys can get a dog to do this and others will never be able to do it.. good fact!

Last edited by edwardfasteddy on 12-19-2020 at 11:54 AM

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Since this board began many years ago. I have asked this question from time to time. Does the "Man make the dog. Or does the Dog make the man". To many are waiting for that world champion to drop into their lap and make them famous in the dog world. Waiting for that dog to show them how to put a line outside their house of people wanting to breed. Search for that dog to fill up their bank account. If that happens in anyones life. It wasn't the dog that showed up and made it happen. It was the Man showed up with the dog he has been looking for. Knew how to breed or train. Knew how to promote. Hopefully along the way, knew how to treat his fellow man with kindness.

Did Houses Chief make Joe House famous or did Joe House make Houses Chief famous. Did Buddy Gilbert make Crowding Billy Famous or did Crowding Billy make Buddy Gilbert Famous. Did John Strickland make Bad Habit famous or did Bad Habit make John Strickland famous. The list can continue. In our modern era we can see John Strickland repeating his winning ways with Big Country. These dogs just don't fall out of a tree into his back yard. These dogs didn't just show up with John at a hunt to put him in the winners circle. John showed up with them and had the knowledge to know they could win. But the good news is there are thousands of men and women that love their hounds. Will never be recognized as a great in the sport. The the same thing for them holds true as it does for the big winners. Know your dogs, know what you want. Then find and partner with the style of dog that will bring joy into your life. Just don't get blinded by jealousy and think your the only one with a good hound. Lots of them out there.

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The dog makes the man if the man is a good enough dog man. My answer Bruce

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It takes both.

However I’ll say that there’s 100 times more pups wasted with all of the tools to be special than there’s hunters that can train it.
Most of them are thrown away for being renegades.

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