UKC Forums - Repeat Crosses....how often do they work?

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Evidence to the contrary will change my view of it.....thats all I asked for.
But I see some people would rather "think" they know the answer than to go by the evidence presented to them. Once upon a time most of the people believed the world was flat.....
All I asked people for was hard factual evidence....and for the most part all I got was a bunch of opinions from those who are making repeat crosses or hunting dogs from them. This isn't something that can be explained away because you or I say it is one way or the other. I can give umpteen examples of repeat cross failures and so can others....but if those who do not want to believe it wont open their eyes and look at the evidence objectively....then they will never see what Is staring them right in the face. I know what I see and that is enough for me and many others.
Opinions are like burger king.....you can have it your way. What you believers do will not effect what I am doing with my program in the least...so keep making them if you want to and we will just agree to disagree....Shane

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Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
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Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
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03-01-2013 10:26 PM

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oklared
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Registered: May 2005
Location: oklahoma
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SOME OF THE CROSSES MADE THE FIRST TIME ARE ONES THAT PEOPLE SEE AND SOME OF THE TOP DOG MEN WANT ONE, THAT IS NOT GENERALY THE CASE NEXT TIME ARROUND CAUSE YOU WILL MAKE CROSS # 2 BEFORE FIRST ONE HAS DONE ANYTHING THEN THEY ARE A LITTLE HARDER TO PLACE ETC

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03-01-2013 10:28 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
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I have never had trouble placing pups and the repeat crosses I have talked about out of Jessie and Deana had no problem being placed. In fact....because of the success of the first crosses....their was a wait list on the repeat crosses. I think this is also the case with many high profile well known first crosses that produced world champs or a high number of nt.ch. and gr.nt.ch. dogs....people want to get on the list for those repeat crosses.

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03-01-2013 10:44 PM

oklared
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Registered: May 2005
Location: oklahoma
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WERE THERE NT'S AND GR NT'S BEFORE YOU MADE SECOND CROSS?

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03-01-2013 11:26 PM

Dirtdevil
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Dna stays the same , but the quality of the chromosomes deteriorate with age in most cases , in the cases where the dogs are crossed again when both parents are still young or a dog just has really healthy chromosomes , the second cross will be just as good.

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03-02-2013 04:16 AM

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jdgher
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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
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Shane

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
That is the best example I have seen Paul.
Would still like to find one where a repeat cross produced equal or greater number of titled dogs. I am sure there has to be a few times that has happened. But I think most of the evidence makes repeat crosses like the one you just listed a very rare occurrence and the odds seem stack against this outcome most of the time.

These aren't big numbers but here you go.

First cross Huey to Reckon:
NTCH Bubba
NTCH Music (Kitty)
Second cross Huey to Reckon
NTCH Annie
NTCh Griddle

Huey only had 40 pups and these make up his 10% reproduction
statistic.
I could not tell a difference between the first and second cross. We only bred Huey to Reckon 2 times.

Harry Oumedian's Rocky X Maggie cross produced 6 GRNTs. Someone else will have to give the info on this. The cross was made maybe 3 times, I don't know for sure. I know GRNT Music left a lasting impression in my mind and I believe she was out of cross number 2. I'd love to own one just like her.
I think Wade Lucking made a great point about females from
"proven crosses". Plenty of stud dog owners will give their right arm to buy one and make a pup factory out of them. Many believe (me too) that good reproducers come from good crosses. They never get out of the kennel at all. Just there to help the stud dogs numbers.
Another point to consider: Responsible breeders have to work hard to move that first litter into competition hunters hands. They know if that first litter turns out real good, it will help sell any following litters down the road. Next cross the breeder relaxes a bit ( human nature) and the following litters fall into a different type of situation.
For some getting those pups into the right hands is exhausting, expensive and just a pain in the behind (especially if you don't really like selling stuff). Some make additional crosses just for themselves and hope for small litters. Some just haul them to a big hunt and move em. Who wants to feed and clean up after 8 hungry dogs very long no matter how great of a cross they come from. End up keeping a couple and giving away
the rest.
Something else to consider, kinda changing the subject: I'll use Moonlight Kate as an example. She was a great hound and reproducer no doubt. The fact of her being bred to a few different stud dogs and reproducing good with each. Well the future is really bright for line breeding on Kate. Same with Pepper Ann and Fiddle and some others. If they had only been bred to the same stud, well trying to line bred on them becomes inbreeding pretty quick and the baby goes out the window with the bath water.
My opinion.
Then again I like repeating good crosses too and I believe the breed has need for both.

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Last edited by jdgher on 03-02-2013 at 07:05 AM

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03-02-2013 06:08 AM

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last chance
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I agree that most repeat crosses doesn't produce as many NiteCh. and Gr.NiteCh. as the first cross!I know it is really difficult to just use the information that Shane gave us and try to come up with what he was asking!I don't believe in U.K.C.'s reproducers list to be accurate in anyway shape or form but in what Shane is asking it's not that hard to understand!I've made three different repeat crosses,the first two repeat crosses didn't produces as many titled dogs as the first time I made the crosses!The third repeat cross I made time will tell!Two of these crosses are Black & Tan and one was a Bluetick cross!Famous Amos and Miller's Red Betsy was made twice I believe?Shane do you have any numbers for that cross?

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03-02-2013 03:26 PM

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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
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quote:
Originally posted by JShelton
Richard why were the pups not title. were they not good enough or what

They weren't as good and yes they got the same or a better chance. I too would like to hear of some who have had 2nd crosses that turned out as good as the first. I will take Kevin Jackson's word on his. I know that he knows what he is talking about. But that is only one example and his dogs are bred pretty tight and are prepotent so all of his crosses should turn out the same. I don't see any scientific reason that a second cross should not be just as good as the first in theory. But I also don't see much evidence that repeat crosses work as well as the first. I used to think that a repeat cross would be just as good but now I am beginning to change my mind. Who says that you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

Oklared what about the crosses on Y2KD? Were any of them repeats?

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03-02-2013 03:59 PM

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Danny McCleskey
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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 367

quote:
Originally posted by last chance
Famous Amos and Miller's Red Betsy was made twice I believe?Shane do you have any numbers for that cross?

The cross was made twice. GrNiteCh Amos Burning Ben was from the first cross and NiteCh Shabels Famous Apache Red was from the second cross. Those were the two nite hunt titled dogs from Amos and Betsy.

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Nite Hunt Titled Dogs I Owned

1986 Autumn Oaks National Grand Nite Ch Redbone
GrNiteCh GrCh Key River Rock

1992 Autumn Oaks National Grand Nite Ch Redbone
1992 Autumn Oaks - Overall High Scoring Redbone
GrNiteCh Flint Creek Hustlin Doc

GrNiteCh Flint Creek Hustlin Amy
NiteCh Flint Creek Hustlin Amos
NiteCH Ch Johnos Red Sugar
NiteCh Ch Treefines Firecracker
NiteCh Flint Creek Miss Minnie
NiteCh GrCh Flint Creek Red Champ
NiteCh Guinns Rusty

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03-03-2013 12:28 AM

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last chance
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Thanks Danny for them facts!I know you wanted two or more titled dogs but I wasn't sure that's why I asked on Amos and Betsy!

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03-03-2013 12:02 PM

Butterbean26
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: clarksville,IN
Posts: 625

quote:
Originally posted by Danny McCleskey
The cross was made twice. GrNiteCh Amos Burning Ben was from the first cross and NiteCh Shabels Famous Apache Red was from the second cross. Those were the two nite hunt titled dogs from Amos and Betsy.

Danny who was the better dog out of these two crosses.

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03-03-2013 03:14 PM

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Danny McCleskey
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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 367

quote:
Originally posted by Butterbean26
Danny who was the better dog out of these two crosses.

I never hunted with Apache Red

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03-04-2013 12:55 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Does anyone have any other examples of a repeat cross producing equal to or a higher number of titled dogs than the first cross.....or is this myth busted???

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03-05-2013 08:05 PM

Danny McCleskey
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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 367

quote:
Originally posted by Danny McCleskey
The cross was made twice. GrNiteCh Amos Burning Ben was from the first cross and NiteCh Shabels Famous Apache Red was from the second cross. Those were the two nite hunt titled dogs from Amos and Betsy.

Is one nite hunt titled dog out of a litter considered a good cross?

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03-05-2013 08:18 PM

HERSHSHUNTIN
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DANNY

Do you have any info or numbers on litters out of AMOUS and COMANCHE RED ROSE??, just wondering how that was.
Thanks Hersh

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03-05-2013 08:36 PM

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Butterbean26
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Posts: 625

quote:
Originally posted by Danny McCleskey
Is one nite hunt titled dog out of a litter considered a good cross?

Danny Great question i was wondering about this myself.

Repeat crosses: I know this is a little off topic but i thought this question would be fitting for this thread as well.

If a dog is out of a Repeat cross and that cross didn't reproduce as well as the previous cross, Does that mean the hound of the Repeat cross can not reproduce as good or better than a hound out of the first cross ?

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03-05-2013 08:37 PM

Danny McCleskey
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Location: North Alabama
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Re: DANNY

quote:
Originally posted by HERSHSHUNTIN
Do you have any info or numbers on litters out of AMOUS and COMANCHE RED ROSE??, just wondering how that was.
Thanks Hersh

Comanche Red Rose was bred to Hunters Famous Amos three times. The first litter produced three nite champions. The second litter one nite champion and the third litter no nite champions.

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03-05-2013 08:50 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by Danny McCleskey
Is one nite hunt titled dog out of a litter considered a good cross?

when I asked for info on this I set the criteria for comparison of using examples where the first cross produced at least 2-3 titled dogs. I did so because that would show that a fair number of the pups went to competition hunters....and it would stand to reason that if the first litter made it into the hands of competition hunters....then the repeat crosses would also....probably even more so because competition hunters love to get pups from "proven" crosses. I don't consider a litter where only 1 pup made a good dog a great cross....but if only one titled....we can't be sure how good the litter was because it may have been the only one who went to a competition hunter.

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03-05-2013 08:54 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by Butterbean26
Danny Great question i was wondering about this myself.

Repeat crosses: I know this is a little off topic but i thought this question would be fitting for this thread as well.

If a dog is out of a Repeat cross and that cross didn't reproduce as well as the previous cross, Does that mean the hound of the Repeat cross can not reproduce as good or better than a hound out of the first cross ?

Bean, I have seen nothing in all the dogs I have studied to show that a particular dog from a repeat cross cannot be as good or better than any dog from the original cross...or as good or better of a reproducer. There are plenty of cases that show they can be great reproducers and big winners. What is lacking is the evidence that repeat crosses produce an equal or greater number of these great dogs as the first cross.

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03-05-2013 08:58 PM

Hoosier Outlaw
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I just bred to a dog from a repeat cross and I had no fear of the pups not turning out to be good or great dogs. There is nothing wrong with the dogs who turn out to be good or great dogs from a repeat cross....I just think the evidence shows that there is a lower chance of getting many...if any of these types of dogs from a repeat cross.....

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03-05-2013 09:01 PM

Tim Figg
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jim grubb had bred his sue female to hammer x many times and she produced many titled dogs and most importantly coondogs. he later had a female from that cross named crystal that he bred to jet v and she reprduced a total of 49 pups with some thing like 12 or 14 titled dogs and most importantly alot of coondogs. if you look at the reproducers list there is dogs on there that has 3000 plus pups on the ground. i would think that alot of them pups came out of the same repeat cross. i see where females have produced 50, 60 and close to 70 pups with 19 to 26 titled dogs and i would bet that alot of them came from repeat crosses. i'm just saying if some one repeated the same cross more than twice they was a good reason. why would any one go thru the time and money if it wouldn't work. to me and many others i have talked to a proven repeated cross is a good thing to do. i personelly like to cross just 1 time. the next time try something diffferent it might be better. the coondog world gets much bigger when you get away from the redbone breed, but i wouldnt trade them for all the others and thats just me. tim figg

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03-05-2013 09:40 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by Tim Figg
jim grubb had bred his sue female to hammer x many times and she produced many titled dogs and most importantly coondogs. he later had a female from that cross named crystal that he bred to jet v and she reprduced a total of 49 pups with some thing like 12 or 14 titled dogs and most importantly alot of coondogs. if you look at the reproducers list there is dogs on there that has 3000 plus pups on the ground. i would think that alot of them pups came out of the same repeat cross. i see where females have produced 50, 60 and close to 70 pups with 19 to 26 titled dogs and i would bet that alot of them came from repeat crosses. i'm just saying if some one repeated the same cross more than twice they was a good reason. why would any one go thru the time and money if it wouldn't work. to me and many others i have talked to a proven repeated cross is a good thing to do. i personelly like to cross just 1 time. the next time try something diffferent it might be better. the coondog world gets much bigger when you get away from the redbone breed, but i wouldnt trade them for all the others and thats just me. tim figg

Tim, I have studied many crosses from the walker, b&t, and redbone breeds from the very dogs you mentioned on those reproducer lists....and was unable to find a single example of a repeat cross producing more titled dog than a first cross that produced a minimum of 2-3 titled dogs. I hear what your saying....you would think there would be plenty of cases where it has happened because repeat crosses are made all the time and have been for years....but all the evidence I can find seems to show that contrary to popular belief....its just not the case. Maybe because many repeat crosses do produce "some" good dogs.....that the numbers have never really been studied. I am in no way saying that all repeat crosses will be duds....only that the evidence shows that most will produce a lower % of titled dogs compared to the first cross. I didn't invent this theory and I am in no way trying to take credit for the idea. Just trying to get more evidence....Shane

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03-05-2013 09:54 PM

boxmanwillie
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REPEAT CROSS

THEY DONOT ALWAYS WORK JUST LIKE FLIPPING A COIN HEADS OR TAILS

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03-07-2013 12:28 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

When you flip a coin...there is about a 50/50 chance......out of thousands of repeat crosses made over the years....there should be plenty of examples of titled dogs from repeat crosses equaling or producing even more titled dogs than first time crosses if it were anywhere close to a 50/50 success rate don't you think? I have found exactly I case of equal number and that was after the first cross produced 3 titled dogs and one was a world champion. I am not saying they have a 100% failure rate....but the success rate has to be pretty low if you use the number of titled dogs from the first cross as a bench mark.
I realize this goes against what seems to make sense...but there has to be something else to this since you are using animals who should in theory produce exactly the same quality of pups in a repeat cross as they did in a first time cross. But the hard evidence cannot be ignored here.

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03-07-2013 12:54 AM

boxmanwillie
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REPEAT CROSS

YOU ARE RIGHT THE EVIDENCE IS THERE TO REPRODUCE THE TITLES DO NOT MEAN NOTHING TO A LOT PEOPLE ITS JUST LIKE THE ALL GRAND PEDIGREE SOME WORK AND SOME DONT YOU DO NOT WANT TO BREED TO CLOSE YOU SEEM TO BE DOING A GOOD JOB GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR NEW PUPPIES

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03-07-2013 02:08 AM

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