Registered: May 2010
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Originally posted by dchartt
what Wes said, i dont even breed dogs and I know that...I wouldnt give a dime to someone who sits down and breeds dogs on paper and talks about geno crap theory whatever it is

drop the crap and put your boots on cuz you aint proving anything to anyone (who actually hunts their dogs)

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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Originally posted by danny681
to each his own. Buy what you want from who you want ,but i'd say Mike and others have a right to breed what and how they want. Also it's a free message board so i guess they can say what they want . I'm no breeder either, but i do know that knowing the weaknesses and strengths in a line sure helps with an overall plan for breeding Especially if your going to line breed or inbreed for a certain type dog. I hope Mike and others continue to post on their breeding programs. I don't consider my self so smart as to think i still can't learn a thing or two at 63.

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Originally posted by wes holmes
I agree that knowing the strengths and weaknesses in a line is very important. I disagree that that can be deciphered in an examination of a pedigree. I have heard the saying for years " breed a coon dog to a coon dog" to get good pups. I've seen a lot of these crosses made some worked most didn't. Genetics are very complex and it takes a lot of trial and error to come up with what your hoping for, if you ever do. I'm not saying that Mike is wrong. I have a lot of respect for folks that endeavor to improve their dogs. I would rather do my research in the woods. Just my opinion. I think I'm still entitled to that wether it agrees with yours or not.

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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Originally posted by sam kirkland
It has been my experience that inbreeding and/or linebreeding can produce really good results but only when the breeding stock be it dogs or birds have a really good solid genetic foundation. If they don,t have good solid genetic traits you will only be magnifying the traits that are there and if the breeding stock have genetic defects these will be even more pronounced in the inbred or linebred offspring.On the other hand if you are fortunate enough to have foundation breeding stock with real good genetics both in physical traits and mental traits that are dominant in putting these traits in their offspring you can set them as a strain by inbreeding and linebreeding with a well thought out selection process of which ones to use as breeders. Many well known strains within breeds of dogs have been developed this way.Inbreeding and linebreeding is necessary to keep a strain of dogs uniform and to keep them producing offspring with predictable desired traits.I have with the help of some close friends been breeding a strain of treeing feist for close to 30 years.I started with some little Riverun Treeing Feist from Jerry Arrington.I have over the years placed some of the best individuals from the litters we raised with people in easy driving distance on the agreement I might get to use the dog for breeding later.Several of these people have started their own breeding program with these dogs.We have enough dogs in this genetic pool to family breed these dogs.None of us intentionally set out to breed this way but we noticed as we went that by breeding the best individuals in this line to each other and not outcrossing that the dogs were getting better and more uniform.These little dogs are well known in our area as squirrel treeing machines that are complete naturals requiring very little training just exposure to the desired game.The percentage of dogs in each litter that are turning out to be good ones is high enough that no one would believe me unless they happen to own some of this strain.On the other side of the coin I have seen strains of dogs that had to be outcrossed to get better off spring.It all depends on how strong the good genetic traits are in foundation stock that you start with.Myself im a firm believer that inbreeding and linebreeding is a necessary part of any breeding program where the goal is to preserve and improve the traits of a line of dogs instead of outcrossing and winding up in a few generations with something completely different than what we started with.These are just my thoughts and opinions.I,m not saying my ways are right and others are wrong.I,m just saying this is what has worked for me.Other people have no doubt reached their breeding goals with entirely different methods.These different methods are interesting to me as a breeder and I can usually learn something I didn't know by reading them.

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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great thread and a lot of good info glad to see a lot of interested in moving the breed forward makes me want to put some leopards in the kennel beside the walkers I defiantly need to get 1 thanks for the great read carl

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bobcat & coyote hunter by

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That's my point. They selected brood stock by what they saw. Tn Lead was foundation stock and his lineage has never been determined. They selected fox hounds that had a tendency to tree. They saw what the dogs natural traits were. Are some lines more predisposed to pass on one trait or another? Sure they are. If breeding could be so easily manipulated everyone would have a good one. Good breeders are as rare as good dogs. I agree breed what you want, hunt what you want. It's not all about lineage. Natural ability has to be a factor.

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I think whether it's the old line or the Jug line there is room for both. Breed in the direction you like . Raise and hunt what you like . What i can't stand is all the crazy bickering. We need to pull together if we want to maintain our breed. I really have no problem with which way a man goes. Jug or old time ,it's none of my business. I just plain like leopards,any size or color.

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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I've known CC "David" for over 35 years he is a wealth of breeding knowledge , and loves to share what he knows to help others. I to have really enjoyed this thread.

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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micheal and frog you are right everybody just needs to agree to disagree we can all look for the dogs we like and let the next guy look for what he is looking for

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I got involved in this because you have a great insight into genotype leading to phenotypes by the merle gene. Do you boys realize the code has been cracked? I would think you have a better chance than any other breed to decode related traits.

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Originally posted by Kan
micheal and frog you are right everybody just needs to agree to disagree we can all look for the dogs we like and let the next guy look for what he is looking for

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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Danny681 you are very wright thanks

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this is what happens to older dog breeders and there dogs.well last year I was down to one 35 pound cc female this dog is just over one year old she was a SUPER fast coon and squrr dog and always had the meat. her value on the dog market would have been 3or4k.once winter set in I decide to house train her and teach her a number of tricks.just after jan my two gran daughters Ashley and taylor ask if they could take her for the weekend.well the weekend ended and the kids called and asked if they could keep her for ever.i said yes. the point of this post is to explain were the dog is at now.first shes been spayed which I wanted at a cost of 700 bucks. next the kids sentme a picture of her last nite.the dog is wearing a WINTER COAT AND BOOTS getting ready go for her walk.my children and this world has gone MAD.

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wes. in my world HUNTING AND HUNTING came first .my only concern was ABILITY IN THE BUSH.once a dog showed me this then i would consider breeding him or her.i didn't care or have a breed standard again it was about ability in the bush.all pups were raised by me all were trained by me if they werent above average at around a year old they were done.we must understand our coon population was huge and i had permission from over 350 farmers.and i trained dogs 7 nites a week starting spring right up till it was to cold.fact, it was normal to sell 20 to 30 well started dogs a year. one thing i learned the more natural a dog is bred for the job it makes it easy to train them.frog and micheal and others will make it work if they put ability first .

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CC, as I stated before I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. It's just my opinion that too much emphasis is placed on pedigrees and not nearly enough on selecting dogs that exhibit natural ability. I've made crosses and have seen numerous crosses that should have worked on paper but didn't. I think it's highly unlikely that the probability of producing an outstanding litter based on an analysis of pedigree would be any greater than producing an outstanding litter by breeding two individuals that have the natural characteristics you desire. Just my opinion. My comment about theory was not directed toward the science of genetics. It was directed toward the way the science is applied by most breeders. I consider that application to be theory in most cases.

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I understand what your saying and agree at times to much paper blinds many folks.if we take this a step further. example. have a 10 year plan. lets say two litters a year hunt the hair off those two litters select a couple of the best after doing this for 10 to 20 years then papers have some merit. and we can sit back and say to our selfs in 20 years every dog I bred in 20 years was above average and nothing but proven dogs were used in my breeding program for the last 20 years.i can see some of the lep breeders taking the above rd, with testing hard and will only breed off the best. but because there working with a new program the papers add flar and excitement while there waiting for there litters.a couple years of breeding wakes us up if were doing it right.

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CC I agree that 10 years is a good starting place. I just don't see that kind of devotion or time with most breeding programs. I think most folks today are looking at pedigrees as a substitute for the work in the woods. Don't sell something as proven when nothing could be further from the truth. Don't promote a super dog when you and I both know that kind of dog comes along once or twice in a lifetime. Breeding pedigrees is a slippery slope. A lot of folks take just enough of the science to be dangerous.

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LOL very true.

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David and Wes, Wes i dont know you but i've known David for over 30 years and know he knows what he's talking about. I'm not in anyway trying to be smart or to say you don't . I just don't know you is all i'm saying. I just want you guys opinion. Do you think you can research the peds of a certain line of dogs in a breed, including the offspring and get a guide line of sorts as to what this line produces as a whole? If so could you use this as a base to start a breeding program in the direction you want to go? I see all the time on this forum as well as those of other breeds that this stud is a reproducer because i'm getting great reports of his pups and there starting early and making great tree dogs. Or that his pups ,pups are also early starting hard treeing dogs. SO OF COURSE EVERYONE WANTS ONE OF THESE PUPS FROM OL SO AN SO. But in fact could it not be true about ol so an so and his pups? And his pups ,pups. So couldn't you use this strain as a starting point to line and in breed as your base? You may not get that super dog as you say and yes i agree they are few and far inbetween as a rule. The only exception i ever saw was the canadian cur and their was a pile of way above average dogs in that program coming from david out of canada. I agree you have to hunt and prove them But on every site of all breeds i go to it's always talked about peds and what they mean to a breeding program. I'm no breeder and have no desire to be.. except maybe for myself. Sorry for the long post i just am trying to get a perspective on this.

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wes. its about our own standards and what we feed and keep.mcduffie wrote in full cry I put down better dogs than most folks keep he hunted with me for two weeks. claude Thomas the same words he to spent lots of time hunting with me years ago.and many more.getting proven or top dogs is eaiser than you think.example. one guy breeds one female a year hunts all her 6 pups. the other guy breeds 6 females year hunts all 36 pups. odds are the guy that BREEDS AND HUNTS the large numbers is going to get a higher percent of top dogs. do this number x ten or 20 years and you or I cant help but kicking out a number of top dogs,the above was my method.wes. think about this. A DONKEY could breed top dogs if he used my system and his standard was high and he hunted hard and only bred the top dogs every year for 30 years.

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hi dan. I would agree with your post 30 years ago. I tend to believe todays lep breeders want nothing but the best and many have very high standards before they think about breeding a UNPROVEN DOG.example. Jason/ mike smoken/ micheal/ david/ etc. its just a matter of time and these younger guys will be pooling there dogs genes together. and all will have great proven dogs in there PAPER WORK.and many of these younger guys seem to be into this dog breeding and testing for the LONG HAUL.so that's a outside view on the LEP BREEDERS in todays WORLD.

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David i think some of it is due to age. I'm from the old school,breed the best to the best. Closest i ever bred was father to daughter and or granddaughter. You of course took it a lot farther than that with great results. These younger guys get right into genetics. I wouldn't know a genotype from a phenotype if it came up and bit me on the nose. But it doesn't mean it's not important in breeding. Yes you have to hunt them to see what your producing and i think they are. They just study the genetics in depth before they start. Just seems to me like thats a smart thing. My dad bred beef cows for years and years , he studied their genetics in depth. People from other states came to buy them to induce into their herds cause they were so good. When these young guys start talking about genetics it's way over my head" same as when my dad did it". But i do find it interesting and i hope they have great results from it. I'm an old dinosaure i know and yea i'm no breeder but i sure find all this genetics stuff interesting . If i was a young man i might well look into it and try to use it, but that ships sailed. Just wanted to tell you I have some new ground to hunt and Jake has really turned it on . Oh and my little female i got thats from a mother son cross female back to her grandpa. Is and acts exactly like you predicted she would to a tee. Hmmm wonder how you would know that. lol

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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C.C.Guys like you are far and few between. Thank you for sharing all your years with us. Sure would like to see this topic fire back up. I'm sure you where just getting started.

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CLAVEY RIVER BIG GAME CURS

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Originally posted by CLAVEYRIVERCURS
C.C.Guys like you are far and few between. Thank you for sharing all your years with us. Sure would like to see this topic fire back up. I'm sure you where just getting started.

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Dan Ashcraft 304-622-5505

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You breeders that have had success in brother to sister crosses, Are you keeping the whole litter or only the males or only the female ? Then from that cross where do you go next back to the sire or dam or do you breed the litter mates from that cross together.

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CLAVEY RIVER BIG GAME CURS

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