Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

I am wondering what everyone else think's. Some dog's just seem to be born Rig dog's. Other's never become real top Rig dog's no matter how you work them.
Is Rigging a Heritable quality ?????
Jess

__________________
Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Park Falls, WI.
Posts: 487

quote:

---

Originally posted by hellcat
I am wondering what everyone else think's. Some dog's just seem to be born Rig dog's. Other's never become real top Rig dog's no matter how you work them.
Is Rigging a Heritable quality ?????
Jess

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 4312

Yes, but I also think nose factors into this,which is also heritable.If a dog doesnt have a good nose they dont make a good rig dog.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

nose- and a hair trigger to bark = rig dog


i think its very inherited-- -


they can learn it --if theyve got it in them-


my buddy says-- how can they help it-- if they smell they have to bark---- but somedogs just never do- lol

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

I believe "rigging" is just like most any hunting trait............
Inheritable , but needs " opportunity " to develop.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 93

hmmm good question hellcat , i have been on both sides of this , if you have good rig dogs you can train others to do the same i have also seen the flip side of that same coin if you do not have a good rig dog it is tuff to do . i would not go all out to say that it is a born trait to strike off a rig , i have had awesome rig dogs , and like us humans they are here today and gone tomorrow . a friend of mine had his rig dog get killed he had younger dogs out of him and the mother to the pups was also a fine rig dog but she was layed up with stitches in her belly from a bear fight . he threw the younger ones up there , keep in mind both parents were great rig dogs , them things had no clue and they were not puppies by no means 2 and a half year old dogs , so to say they are born with it , in this case , absolutely no way . now they were fine when the race was under way bay , fight and tree a bear with the best of them , but to strike it off the rig was not gonna happen. perhaps no bears were in the area , or the wind was blowing in wrong direction . throw them on the ground and road them , they would start one and either get it treed or stopped . dont know fellas , when i rig my dogs i throw everything up there in hopes to train the younger ones and so far for me it has worked... knock on wood , it takes a good broke dog to be able to do that and withstand all the pressure from the younger ones wanting to strike a running rabbit going across the road or a deer , a butterfly , it takes work but it can be done ad you can get the younger ones broke fairly quick also by doing that , been my experiance anyhow... happy hunting all

__________________
unless you are the lead dog the scenery never changes

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Taxachusetts
Posts: 683

Hi Hellcat, I tried to respond to your PM a bunch of times but it wouldn't go through for some reason.

To answer your question I can't use Photobucket photos for the calendar. They resize them smaller on there. I need the original high res photos if I'm going to use it for a feature page.

Email them to me a couple at a time if you need to or if you have a lot put them on a CD or DVD and snail mail to:

Gayle Staffiere
15 Ashdale Rd
N. Billerica, MA 01862

Thanx
Gayle

__________________
~Gayle~
Buy the 2009 Big Game and Coonhound Calendar at
http://www.coonhoundcalendar.com/page2.html
See calendar samples at
http://ravengraphix.com/portfolio/main.php?g2_itemId=1410

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

Good post's
I have been thinking about this one for several years now.
Jess

__________________
Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

if you have good rig dogs you can train others to do the same


yes you can --

-- ive seen some pretty good ones that were rig dogs before they knew what a bear was---

i guess they were what id call started rig dogs--

if they strike chances are pretty good theres a bear track there somewhere-


but you better check pretty close before you dump the box-

rarely see a whole track - if i see grass or brush bent over -- and no hoof marks - mite be worth a shot-


i can think of some that did pretty good job at 7-8 months old--

very easy to get what id call a started rig dog--


strikes bear- who knows what else it strikes --

thats breeding --


a finished rig dog is a different story-i have to train them one at a time-



can be a long road to a dog that when he barks you know it was a bear and you will dump all your dogs without looking for tracks -


thats training


there is a lot of guess work in training them

dog i use now is one of best ive seen at striking tracks a long ways off the road-

when she was a pup i had a great rig dog but he mostly only struck tracks that crossed the road--

u got to have some faith -- when a pup in box is going nuts-
when ol trustworthy is on top the box not saying a word--


i discovered this just by luck -and for first year i let him go every time she struck--

wasnt always a bear

but i could tell the minute he hit the ground if it was or not--

he was a tattletale-- hump right up if it was trash -ive seen times he would race around for a half hour looking for that track she struck from in the box-

i wish i knew how he knew----its lucky i didnt ruin her--

when ol trustworthy started was kind of same thing , he was much colder nosed than the dog i was using


one day i was trying my hardest to shut him up and couldnt do it-

and just happened to see a bear track in the road--


then i started paying attention and he was a natural-

he replaced the older dog in no time-


anyways -- rigging and rig dogs is almost a sport all by itself--

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete


anyways -- rigging and rig dogs is almost a sport all by itself--

---

__________________
Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Upper Michigan
Posts: 118

Hows things...hope all is well in your neck of the woods

You are right on 100%.

You've got the right strain and know what you're seeing. Nose

I have one particular strain that are bonafide "riggers"
When they are young just as you said they will blow up in the box or whever you have them, sometimes not always what you're after when they are young.
However, they will rig even when they are pups and don't know why they are just dancing on their hind legs and givin every breath. Let em develop and man what a luxury. Mostly that trait has been bred out for a "hotter" nose

Most have never seen a good rig dog in action that you trust 100% and will dump the box when they say. Those are ones to enjoy. I love dogs that will rig.

Old male I had a while back. I didn't get him till he was old and worn out. That old rascal would rig on the box, leash or 70 mph down the interstate.

Take care Pete

__________________
Sugar Ridge Farms
Reg Angus and Blueticks
IN GOD WE TRUST


Blueticks used for Coons Bear & Cat Upper Peninsula of MI

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

The dogs who strike from the truck are usualy the same ones who locate on body scent. A winding type of dog.


I hunted with Dewayne Edmondson every night for over a year. His Dan dog was a little over a year old when I started. The Sizzlin Heat dog had just won the world hunt and Dewayne had trained him most of his life. We had dogs backed up for months and took in 10 a month to train.

We put Dan in the back of the truck and drove the roads around the river bottems that surround Rich Hill MO, with a couple pups in the box. When Dan struck we stopped and let him and the pups out. In over a years time I never heard the dog open when he didnt tree a coon. Strait as a string, and deadly accurate. We would hunt those pups like that a couple hours a night and go back home and trade them out for a couple more, to hunt them a couple hours as well.

I dont know how many pups came through there in that year+ time, but it was alot. Dan got alot of young dogs off to a good start, and made us more money than we earned at our regular jobs during the day.

Neither of his parents were worth a tinkers dam at rigging, but about half the dogs from that cross were artists at it.

I have also noticed a good rig dog is usualy a good lay-up dog as well.

__________________
GRNTCH GRCH ROBINSONS ENGLISH LOOSER

RIP Loose

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

They both tend to do a lot of winding. I also have noticed that when a dog is good at one he tends to be good at the other.
Jess

__________________
Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 176

I think rig dogs are born.... they either seem to have it or not. Now what to rig is something they have to be taught just like what to run. I have seen dogs napping on the rig, strike from a dead snore..... I have also seen good bear dogs that just flat wouldn't rig..... so I think it is an inherited trait.

__________________
Mason Workman
702-686-5035

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 93

i have to disagree , the dogs that wont rig can be good dogs sure , but for it to be bred into them no . normaly for most cases if they dont rig it is because they are scared to be up there , they look like a new born baby colt all quiver legged and they try to lay down some snap out of it and some dont . but you can train a dog to rig i have done it and seen many others do it . not trying to be argumentive here , however as i said before if you have good rig dog that will take pressure and will tattle tale on others when they screw up you will train some descent rig dogs . i will agree to a point also what you said about a wind striking strike dog , however on that same note that dog is also most always a cold nosed dog . when i say that i mean that dog will also strike a day and half to a three day old track and be able to move it . not saying they will catch it especialy in snow . i have stuck my dogs down in tracks and they trailed them up , just to find out they had already been dogs on a differant road system on that very same track , lol . or be on dry ground and have your dog strike a track and move it pretty good until they hit a road system or a clearing where the either the rain or sun had either washed out the track or baked it out . there are many scenario's but it is gonna take alot of convincing to make me beleive that a strike dog on a rig whether it be the hood or the box is an inherited trait.... happy hunting all

__________________
unless you are the lead dog the scenery never changes

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: vt
Posts: 1256

there are many scenario's but it is gonna take alot of convincing to make me beleive that a strike dog on a rig whether it be the hood or the box is an inherited trait.... happy hunting all



lol - i wont try to convince ya--

if had to get real technical -id say -nose and a quick trigger to bark--are hereditary traits-
and if a dog has that then i can train him to rig-- maybe lol


same with dogs winding--- i guess technically any dog strikes from a truck is winding-

but some will bark at a track thats hundreds of yards away -- and some must pass within a few feet -

ive seen some very cold nosed rig dogs that almost always only struck tracks that crossed the road--

just a different style--


seen some of both styles that id feed -- lol

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 93

yes , i totaly agree to that .... happy hunting

__________________
unless you are the lead dog the scenery never changes

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2006
Location: Utah
Posts: 176

I am also not going to try and convince you..... but I would bet if you "trained" those strike dogs and they didn't have it in them to be strike dogs your efforts would have been very futile. So congrats on the training. I too have turned dogs loose only too trail to a road and there are far many more variations to consider but my main one has always been that the traffic is what takes away the scent... not always the case.... but. I am not going to get into an argument with you as I stated my opinion. I believe that rig dogs are naturally that way. Otherwise we would have people that could train any dog in to a rig dog... and in my experience that is not the case. I have had 5 month old pups that want to rig everything.... I taught them nothing.... when their littermates were wide awake and never made a peep. You may say that is mere coincidence.... I have seen enough to beg to differ. I wish you the best with you and your hounds.

__________________
Mason Workman
702-686-5035

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

quote:

---

Originally posted by cougar
i have to disagree , the dogs that wont rig can be good dogs sure , but for it to be bred into them no . normaly for most cases if they dont rig it is because they are scared to be up there , they look like a new born baby colt all quiver legged and they try to lay down some snap out of it and some dont .........

there are many scenario's but it is gonna take alot of convincing to make me beleive that a strike dog on a rig whether it be the hood or the box is an inherited trait.... happy hunting all

---

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2005
Location: Herriman, Utah
Posts: 125

I have to agree with cougar, I dont' think this is a inherited trait. The best rig dog I have ever seen was a dog owen by the late Val Robb this dog would rig a track no other dog would open up on and the dog looked like he came from the pound he had long hair like a sheep dog and if you let the dog off the box he couldn't trail his way back to the truck, never started or finished a track. My very best dog I have ever owned wouldn't rig at all but one of the finest bear , lion , bobcat dogs I have ever seen, I had pups out of him that would rig and some wouldn't.
I guess what I am trying to say is I think the dog has to have the brains to rig. I have a Airedale that will rig with the best of them and I wouldn't say he has the nose of any of my hounds and I don't think that old sheep dog looking thing ole Val Robb had, had any kind of nose. I have seen some pretty average dogs rig pretty good but I didn't think much of them as track dogs, but I will agree they were pretty good locaters.jmo

__________________
Lightning Ridge Kennels
Walker breeding at it's Best
Used to catch Big Game
We do not breed for length of ear, but what is between the ears. (Lester Nance)

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2007
Location:
Posts: 64

I agree with Bob and Pete. I think rigging is an inherited trait that can be enhanced by positive re-enforcement somewhat. If you put a young dog up with a experienced rig dog, and then praise him when he does good, correct him when he's bad, you'll probably end up with a decent rig dog. I don't think you can teach a dog to rig/tree/strike that doesn't have it in them already. Like Pete has said before "You can make a dog NOT want to do something, but can't make them WANT to do something in the first place"

Good rig dogs do a lot of things that you can't teach, they just do them. They'll work the wind and are always in a position to smell. I've seen some dogs that were sound asleep one second to pounding rig the next, while other dogs couldn't smell squat wide awake. I've also stuffed a good rig dog way in the box, and had them rig while other dogs up top couldn't.

One other situation I've seen is a few smarter old rig dogs may know that you put them down when they bark. So they'll rig and then they'll go on our tour looking for a track. Most times they'll probably find one, but it won't be from smelling something at the spot you put them down. I watched one go through an entire 1 mile section one time and come to a sand road where no bear had crossed all day. The dog crossed and started cranking about a half mile in. I know for a fact he didn't rig that bear from a mile and a half away.

Devin
Those pups(that would rig) that you had out of your old dog(that wouldn't rig), must have been some sort of throwback or from their mom. I've seen very few dogs(if any) that were real good that wouldn't rig somewhat. Those dogs get a whole pile of stuff in them from a whole mixed pot of genetics back there. The only way I know to get anything decent out is to try and get the most good stuff in that pot as you can, and then get lucky.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2005
Location: Herriman, Utah
Posts: 125

Yup you said it ...Lucky and I think that is all it is. The Mom was a Hell of a rig dog and a pretty good track dog to boot. you didn't even touch on the old sheep dog and the Airedale, gene pool isn't going to happen there and the old dog was line bred from hell, not just a mixed up dog there.
I would love to agree with you about this, because I am a firm believer in line breeding and genetics, but it does always work out that way when it comes to a rig dog or for that matter a track or tree dog..sorry

__________________
Lightning Ridge Kennels
Walker breeding at it's Best
Used to catch Big Game
We do not breed for length of ear, but what is between the ears. (Lester Nance)

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Tonasket,Washington
Posts: 923

I agree with Rock Creek and my argument goes along the lines of what you guys said about the mixed breeds.I think they either have it or they don't.I had a border collie and an australian shepard that both would strike every bear ya drove by and neither had been taken with the hounds at all.So it was not a trained thing.

__________________
Home of Strawberry Mt Kennels
Never underestimate the Power of Hillbilly Mac and Southern Sound
Nt Ch Owens Glassy Mt Skip
Nt Ch Southern Sound Jimbo
Gr Nt Ch Ch Southern Sound Matlock
Gr Nt Ch Strawberry Mt Korn
Pr Strawberry Mt Sadie
The reason I hunt this bloodlines is a quote an old friend gave me,"Your either making dust or your eating it."

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 1522

quote:

---

Originally posted by jackbob42
I believe "rigging" is just like most any hunting trait............
Inheritable , but needs " opportunity " to develop.

---

__________________
Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Last edited by hellcat on 06-21-2007 at 04:27 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: kellogg mn
Posts: 846

This question has me scratching my head. I owned littermate sisters, Fly could strike a coon in the box at 55 mph and if I put her down she'd finish it. Belle couldn't do it at all, yet she was the better layup dog by far. Their noses were about equal. I do believe they're born with the ability to do it, but I don't know how much luck you'd have trying to breed for it. It's been my experience they either got it or they don't.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged