Registered: May 2007
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Hi folks,

I guess my subject line pretty much says it all so I hope you'll bear with me.
I do not come from a hunting background and have only shown dogs in conformation, obedience, protection etc. I always had working breeds ( Rotts, Dobes ) and have handled Dogos, Corsos etc. Anyhow, four years ago I got my first Karelian Bear Dog and I just love this breed. My bitch comes from all Finn hunting lines.We have been three times to Finland and have been fortunate enough to have someone take us out hunting with a KBD and Finnish Hound ( didn't see anything but that's OK )
My question is, how does one get started in large game hunting and how does one get information on starting a dog for hunting moose, bear, etc? My bitch kills every small animal in the yard and seems very fast and courageous. The coyotes on the other side of the fence really get her worked into a lather but I'm guessing none of this could be considered any kind of proof that she could hunt bigger game? Does anyone out there hunt with KBD or Laika?
Any information on getting started would be appreciated even if it is only to tell me that she is too old to begin. Please keep in mind that I am the first to admit that I know NOTHING about going hunting with dogs so I hope you all don't think I'm totally stupid. I'm in the northeast ( CT ) and we also have a cabin in VT
Thanks in advance for any info.
maureen

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location: Elkview, WV
Posts: 134

I would try to find a reputable hunter with good dogs who is pursuing the game your interested in and hopefully they can take you under their wing. You will need someone with good dogs to help you train yours. The easiest way to train dogs is to run them with other trained dogs. I don't know anything about those dogs you mentioned and it will probably be hard to find someone on here with any experience with them. I think most on here are hunting hounds or some variation of a cur. Good luck

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Registered: Mar 2004
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What little I have been around the KBD's they are sight dogs or very hot tracks at best.I used to have an Akita that would get in on a bear but same thing not much for nose.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Vermont
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Where abouts in vt is your cabin?

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Registered: Jan 2006
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If you really want to get started...buy an old pup training coondog and start off treeing coon.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Sandy Hook, KY
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wat line of protection dobies you rase and train,,why i ask is i do rase and train dobies also,pm me if you wount ,,i rase altobello 4 protection and i am a trainer as well,american dobies are not as good as europen dobies 4 protection,american dobies dont have the drives 4 bite work if you wount to stay on top breed european,,the american are good obedence dogs tho,

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: Diamondhead, Ms
Posts: 371

"the american are good obedence dogs tho,"


And, they're "pretty" -- so much for AKC (JMO). I grew up with European dobes (45 years ago) who were much different in confirmation and disposition than American breds out there today. My old schutzhund friends make fun of American dobes and rots. Just a thought.

Marc

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Registered: May 2007
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Thanks to all for the information! I will ask around here and see what I can find for hunters who may be willing to help me. I did meet one fellow from CT who has UKC coonhounds and he spoke of going to many UKC trials as well as winning some top honors at trials. I forget his name, I think the kennel name may have been Greenwood or something like that? He was very pleasant and he seems to go all over the country trialing his coondogs. Does this sound familiar to anyone and would anyone know how to contact him?
Thanks again!
Maureen

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Registered: May 2007
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quote:

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Originally posted by jason waterhous
Where abouts in vt is your cabin?

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Registered: May 2007
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quote:

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Originally posted by ky huntter
wat line of protection dobies you rase and train,,why i ask is i do rase and train dobies also,pm me if you wount ,,i rase altobello 4 protection and i am a trainer as well,american dobies are not as good as europen dobies 4 protection,american dobies dont have the drives 4 bite work if you wount to stay on top breed european,,the american are good obedence dogs tho,

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by mprice
[ My old schutzhund friends make fun of American dobes and rots. Just a thought.

I have had some pretty decent American bred rotts that work well but many of the American Dobes seem to have been "toned down" in temperament way too much? I think many Americans that show are trying to do the same thing with the Rotts and some of the dogs are just getting "squirrelly". I guess my philosophy is that if you don't like the tougher temperaments of the true guardian breeds, get a different breed, don't try to change them.
There is a movement to try to tone down the fire of the Karelians and that is not setting well with the Finns for the most part. I can just see the Americans changing the Karelians into a "mini - Akita" with too much coat and a no hunting ability or fire. :-(((
maureen

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quote:

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Originally posted by Travis Stirek
What little I have been around the KBD's they are sight dogs or very hot tracks at best.I used to have an Akita that would get in on a bear but same thing not much for nose.

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I will be flying to TN tomorrow to visit my mom and am not sure if I'll have access to a computer. If people post to me and I don't answr, it isn't because i'm being rude. :-))
maureen

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: SW Missouri
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Karelians are a total different experience than hounds. The Laika breeds are bred for totally different hunting than what we do here with big game.

Karelians run silent. In Sweden they are used mostly as 'tracker' dogs (mandated by law to have one within a 90 minute call out) when hunting elk (aka Moose). These dogs are blood trackers as a primary use in moose hunting. They are VERY scent oriented when raised properly. Here in the US they are mostly used to bark at bears to get them to leave the area (waste of a Karelian if you ask me).

I have a very good biologist friend in Sweden I can hook you up with. He has been an officer for the Karelian breed club in Sweden for a number of years.

There're many tests that the working Karelian has to pass (typical of many European and Scandanavian countries) as they are VERY serious about their dogs and breeding programs (of which personally I think we should adopt in the US). Just because they are from foreign lines doesn't mean they are decent dogs. I've been dealing with foreign dogs all my life and if you do not know what you are dealing with you can end up with culls quite easily. The general attitude is that we breed our dogs like we breed our people; fat, dumb, and lazy. They see American dog people as an easy target (dumb with money) and too often times send their washouts here for good money.

Karelians make excellent tree and bay dogs and have decent noses for tracking (though they are typically hotter nosed). They are bred for a different type of hunting than what we do here in the US with big game. Also with being a double coated breed (like the other Laika breeds) they tend to overheat in hot dry weather.

They do fine for short game runs or bay ups. They weren't bred for the long haul hunting in packs that we do here in the US on big game in hot weather. They are much more of an independent hunter of game in close quarters; and like I stated are more commonly used as blood trailers for wounded game. They are hunted similar to the Norbotten Spitz, Norwegian Elkhound, and other Nordic Spitz and Laika breeds.

If you are wanting to get into hunting with your Karelian, I would strongly recommend getting hooked up with a network of people who hunt with them (of which will mostly be people overseas).

There's a number of places to research hunt tests similar to what the Karelians have to pass overseas. The Puddelpointer hunt tests, the JGV Verbandsjugendprufung/herbstzuchtprufung, etc.

I do have some pics somewhere of some of the hunt tests in Sweden. I'll have to e-mail them since I am totally not getting how to put photos on here

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 19374

...since two Old fashioned Dobie people were here... I happened to look at my scrap books since Dobes were brought up the other day... My Grandfather was a breeder in the 1940s and did the Dogs For War stuff. I have scanned in most of the stuff. If any of you guys are interested in seeing some I can email it or post it for you.
I'll sneak in one picture here... Let me know if you're interested. GOOD luck with the big game hunting! BTW my Bluetick "pet" here at home is from CT We're in MA.
HappyHunting, Heather

Here is one of my Grandfathers dogs (and i realise he was earlier than the 40's also. My dad was born in 1918)
This was Roland Hope the pic works...


I can't resist.. TWO pix....
This is an article about the Dogs Of War "Devil Dogs" the man on the left is my grandfather.

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Registered: Jan 2006
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I wish I had could post the pics of my moms dogs on here. They both used to lay next to me even before I was walking (I'm 57) and they looked a lot like the pic you posed, Heather (except maybe not as nice). Roland must have been magnificient! That head and neck and all that front fill between the elbows!! Also, I like all the shoulder angulation (rare now) allowing the animal to turn all that weight on a dime!! And, I'll bet he was 25 to 50% wider at the withers than most of the AKC show champs now. In other words, if he hit you running (and, he would), you would go down!

Thanks Heather, you made my day!
Marc

P.S. see any greyhound in that neck and chest?? Hmmm

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Registered: Mar 2006
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Speaking of greyhounds....There is a picture from Westminster that has the greyhound of yesteryear... NOTHING like the AKC show dog! I'll post it for you, the print may be WAY too small but look how DIFFERENT the greyhound was! Looks like an NGA dog! The Dobe was another of Grandies(My grandfather). Byt the time I was born he had no dogs. He was my only grandparent, lived in MD so I saw him rarely. I ADORED him! I think I inherited the Dog Thing!


Glad you enjoyed it! I think I still have your email address, I'm gonna send you a couple of headshots... breathtaking...

Happy Hunting! Heather

PS Scan the pix to the computer...Hint Hint...I love the older pix!

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: SW Missouri
Posts: 1405

It is so NICE to see the old pics of what the breeds looked like before we Americans screwed them up!!!

I don't have a scanner, but I have some old pics of the German Shepherds from the 30's and 40's. NOTHING like today's dogs.

Keep the old photos coming! It is the only way we can show people the way the dogs were originally meant to be before we started to design them to fit the American ways

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Registered: Jan 2006
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very art deco-ish. Mardomerre Kennels (that's what the greyhound looks like) alos had whippets that were real curvey like this greyhound -- OLD. OLD, Enghish import stuff.

Thanks again, Heather,

Marc Price

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Registered: May 2007
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by starplott
[B]Karelians are a total different experience than hounds.
Karelians run silent. Here in the US they are mostly used to bark at bears to get them to leave the area (waste of a Karelian if you ask me).


Hi Starrplott,

Well, I made it back from Tennessee and I thank you very much for all the info. We agree on many of the points you make regarding the Karelians especially with this business of using the dogs to bark at bears and chase them away. As one serious KBD breeder put it, "Any Bear Dog in Finland that chases bears AWAY would be six feet under ground." LOL


I have a very good biologist friend in Sweden I can hook you up with. He has been an officer for the Karelian breed club in Sweden for a number of years.


That would be great! Thank you!



You wrote that:

There're many tests that the working Karelian has to pass (typical of many European and Scandanavian countries) as they are VERY serious about their dogs and breeding programs (of which personally I think we should adopt in the US). Just because they are from foreign lines doesn't mean they are decent dogs. I've been dealing with foreign dogs all my life and if you do not know what you are dealing with you can end up with culls quite easily. The general attitude is that we breed our dogs like we breed our people; fat, dumb, and lazy. They see American dog people as an easy target (dumb with money) and too often times send their washouts here for good money.


Once again, I completely agree. I've seen a lot of culls in many different breeds be snapped up by Americans who seem to think that just because a dog comes from a foreign country, it is a great dog. Nothing could be further from the truth. Thankfully, the breeder of my KBD works very closely with the SPJ and is the only North American to have their letter of approval for matters regarding KBDs here. She has made it a point to breed for both conformation and hunting ability and gets very annoyed with the breeders from other countries that are trying to breed the fire out of the dogs so they make better pets. As you stated, this type of breeding would make many Amercians happy as they don't wish to put a lot of effort into their dogs and they generally buy a dog based on looks alone without researching breed tendencies etc. I was reading a post on a list recently in which the dog owner went on about how their BD killed a mouse "by accident" and how the dog went on to chase the neighbor's horses, ignoring all commands to "leave it." At the end of the post, she said "Do you think they could be hard wired to behave this way?" Hello!!!!!!!!!!! This group wants to all meet up so their BDs can "play together". That has the potential to be a real blood bath.
I have an aquaintance in Finland who is an SPJ hunting trial judge and I think we may be able to go out in the woods with some dogs after the Voittaja this December. I am very much looking forward to it. Hopefully, he will be able to hook me up with other foreign hunters so that I may learn more about this. I will also check into the other tests for other breeds.
I would love to see the photos of the hunt tests in Sweden. I have found a few videos including some Laiki on a chained bear but not a lot of information yet.
Thanks again for all the great information. I really appreciate it!!
maureen

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BIGCASTLEDAWGS
[B]...since two Old fashioned Dobie people were here I'll sneak in one picture here... Let me know if you're interested. GOOD luck with the big game hunting! BTW my Bluetick "pet" here at home is from CT We're in MA.

Great photos!! Thanks! It is amazing how much the breeds change over the decades. I have watched the American Doberman morph over the years as has the Rottweiler. The Dobes seem to have better shoulder layback now but they have become SO elegant that many do not look like working dogs anymore. The Rotts seem to be becoming more and more extreme and VERY heavy.
Where in MA are you? I'm in Lyme, CT- Home of Lyme Disease ( hey! We're a very small town. It's our only claim to fame! LOL )

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Registered: Oct 2003
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Send me your e-mail addy, yours isn't listed on this site.

If you e-mail me your addy I'll send you a link to Bjorn's photo page and send you his contact info. He's got some video of some of the hunt tests in Sweden (just an elkie on the tethered bear).

I think the only vidoe he has on his Karelian testing is on tracking and geese portions of the test.

Yes, those Karelian owners are in for a surprise, lol. It'll take about 30 years to breed the drives out of them and it'll be another decade before we totally ruin the breed here. There's a couple breeders who got their jump on this in the late 80's, lol.

A guy named Vladamire was breeding WS Laikas for hunting over a decade ago for hunting here in the US. Other than that there are VERY few people who breed for working dogs to preserve the Laika breeds.

I SOOOO wish we had hunt tests here in the US like they do overseas. However, over here it is considered cruel and unusual punnishment for the quarry. With many countries and breeds in order to 'show' the dog has to prove itself as worthy in the field. Here it is almost the opposite, to show it has to be worthless as a working dog; lol.

It is nice that you found a breeder who is trying to actually preserve the integrity of the breed. Conformation and working ability go hand in hand. They are BOTH requirements for breeding stock. We are so breeding crazy in the US that few people understand or care of breed integrity and preservation. It is sad how many breeds we have ruined in the process of conforming them into 'pets' rather than changing our lives and habits to meet the needs of our dogs that we just HAD to have for no good reason other than selfish desires.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nytwind

Where in MA are you? I'm in Lyme, CT- Home of Lyme Disease ( hey! We're a very small town. It's our only claim to fame! LOL ) [/B]

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LOL... Well I've had 3 hounds with Lymes... and used to show horses all thru CT in my past life We're in Wrentham on the RI border... 2 claims to fame I can think of...LOL... OK- The Wrentham Premium Outlet Mall( wehre I've been about 3X) and the Summer homes of Helen Keller and Annie Sullivan....

I am brain injured, so I don't do horses anymore and my memories of all those CT are just about gone. I used to love the weekends at the shows!
Glad you enjoyed the pix! It was cool to scan them onto the computer.
Have a great day, HappyHunting and Showing! Heather

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quote:

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Originally posted by starplott
Send me your e-mail addy, yours isn't listed on this site.



It's nytwind@comcast.net




A guy named Vladamire was breeding WS Laikas for hunting over a decade ago for hunting here in the US. Other than that there are VERY few people who breed for working dogs to preserve the Laika breeds.



Yes, I am aware of Vladimir B. He is an interesting and learned fellow from all I am told altho there is a lot of controversy over some of the claims that the REL and the KBD are exactly the same breed. I do understand the political "rearrangement" of the Karelian border and we have travelled the area where the current border is but I think it is a stretch to say they are the same breed. Came from common stock? Yes of course but that can be said of many different breeds. Anyway, I understand Vladimir is doing a big conference etc in Khazakstan (sp?) this fall. I'd like to go to that.



You wrote:
I SOOOO wish we had hunt tests here in the US like they do overseas. However, over here it is considered cruel and unusual punnishment for the quarry. With many countries and breeds in order to 'show' the dog has to prove itself as worthy in the field. Here it is almost the opposite, to show it has to be worthless as a working dog; lol.



How very sadly true. We used to not talk of doing any bitework/breed testing with the Rotts around the AKC ring as Schutzhund was forbidden in their minds and rules. Now, since 9/11 they are crowing about some "Working Dog" thing and acting as tho they invented it!
I am supervisor for our state's Animal Control unit in the Dept of Agriculture so we have to deal with the animal rights "advocates" all the time. They make me crazy as they are always trying to tell us how to train, house and take care of our dogs when the great majority have never had a real working relationship with ANY dog. They are anti-hunting and anti-agriculture and are always trying to get rid of even the most responsible breeders.


You wrote:

It is nice that you found a breeder who is trying to actually preserve the integrity of the breed. Conformation and working ability go hand in hand. They are BOTH requirements for breeding stock. We are so breeding crazy in the US that few people understand or care of breed integrity and preservation. It is sad how many breeds we have ruined in the process of conforming them into 'pets' rather than changing our lives and habits to meet the needs of our dogs that we just HAD to have for no good reason other than selfish desires.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BIGCASTLEDAWGS
[B]LOL... Well I've had 3 hounds with Lymes... and used to show horses all thru CT in my past life

Oh yes, I've had many dogs come down with Lyme Disease at well as my father-inlaw, several of my officers etc. It is a nasty business.
What kind of horses did you show? I used to do carriage rallies ( ride and drive, Ladies Singles, Ladies to Drive etc ) with a 16.3HH black TB/Holsteiner and I also showed out of Westbrook Hunt Club in the 80's. I had a bay TB that was Reserve State CH. CHSA Adult Hunter in 1984. He put me on my head more times than I can count!!!!! LOL
maureen

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