Registered: Feb 2010
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I am curious since the UKC has squirrel and coon hunt tests what are you guys thoughts on Big Game hunt testing? It is added on the dog’s papers just like Night Champion or Squirrel champion it is listed HTX. Most Big Game registered dogs it just says PR but it would be nice if a dog had HTX bear, boar, or cat on their papers. I know the test does not make the dog but it would be beneficial for breeding purposes or buying/selling as well. I prefer versatile dogs and when you look as some of the versatile dog tests of breeds that are in the US it has been very beneficial to their breeding program. Not everyone is going to like it and it will have pros and cons. Give your thoughts.

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is how would you be able to judge it like do in night hunts an such? its a totally different world in big game hunting,

just curious thanks

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quote:

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Originally posted by dpetty
I am curious since the UKC has squirrel and coon hunt tests what are you guys thoughts on Big Game hunt testing? It is added on the dog’s papers just like Night Champion or Squirrel champion it is listed HTX. Most Big Game registered dogs it just says PR but it would be nice if a dog had HTX bear, boar, or cat on their papers. I know the test does not make the dog but it would be beneficial for breeding purposes or buying/selling as well. I prefer versatile dogs and when you look as some of the versatile dog tests of breeds that are in the US it has been very beneficial to their breeding program. Not everyone is going to like it and it will have pros and cons. Give your thoughts.

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quote:

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Originally posted by C. Burns 17
is how would you be able to judge it like do in night hunts an such? its a totally different world in big game hunting,

just curious thanks

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Starplott,

At that time were bear hunters able to bait during running season like they can today in most states? We do not have bear in my area but it seems this would make it easier to strike a track. Is it feasible on bear for a solo dog to strike, trail, and tree a bear?

I have hunted with hog dogs that could trail and bay a hog (not catch but bay) solo. As I am very ignorant on the Big Game testing system of Europe I am not sure how they do that but I will ask. Thanks for your reply.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dpetty
Starplott,

At that time were bear hunters able to bait during running season like they can today in most states? We do not have bear in my area but it seems this would make it easier to strike a track. Is it feasible on bear for a solo dog to strike, trail, and tree a bear?

I have hunted with hog dogs that could trail and bay a hog (not catch but bay) solo. As I am very ignorant on the Big Game testing system of Europe I am not sure how they do that but I will ask. Thanks for your reply.

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Papers n titles don't catch game. Most biggame hunters I know could care less. Papers now adays u don't know if there right or not there is so much falsifying , doctoring up , or puttin papers on different pups. Don't jump back on me to bad I know there's a lot of papers that are right but there is just as many that aren't. I used to competition coon hunt a lot u wouldn't believe the crap that goes on. To many counterfeit dogs and people. DNA is bout the only way.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TBBLUE
Papers n titles don't catch game. Most biggame hunters I know could care less. Papers now adays u don't know if there right or not there is so much falsifying , doctoring up , or puttin papers on different pups. Don't jump back on me to bad I know there's a lot of papers that are right but there is just as many that aren't. I used to competition coon hunt a lot u wouldn't believe the crap that goes on. To many counterfeit dogs and people. DNA is bout the only way.

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HTX so far mostly means one dog can do it by himself. Can one dog be relied on to track and tree bear or catch a hog? I don't know,just asking.

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Yea one can stop a bear or hog, the bear my not tree and the dog my not catch the hog but one should stop them and bay them

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bo wood
Yea one can stop a bear or hog, the bear my not tree and the dog my not catch the hog but one should stop them and bay them

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I guess you could score it find game and engage game. Just thinking out loud.

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Thanks for bringing this up as I think it's a great topic and really look forward to seeing some of the opinions. Starplott is correct in that it was looked at but just because we couldn't figure it out then doesn't mean we can't figure it out now. I'm very interested in coming up with some form of a licensed (for championship points) hunt beyond what field trials offer for the big game hunter. Whether it is a championship format (dogs competing against other dogs) or a hunt test format (dogs competing against a standard).

That being said, HTX doesn't have to mean a dog operated solo. It's not uncommon for bird dogs, beagles, retrievers and coonhounds to work solo. In fact it's probably more common. It is uncommon for big game hounds to work solo. So in my opinion, a hunt test for them would not be conducted solo. It would seem to me you could still evaluate an individual dog even though it was participating in a pack.

One thing to keep in mind is that in the last few years we have started allowing big game dogs to be inspected for single registration on big game. Now I realize that is less stringent requirement wise than evaluating one for a title of some kind but for single registration purposes, they have to prove to be a productive member of the pack in that they will start, trail, tree and/or bay to a degree that they are productive. Hey....it's a start!

We just need the right creative mind(s) to figure this out and it will be game on! I'm ready. And I am well aware that papers and titles don't "make the dog". But it's nice to have licensed activities for those owners with registered dogs that would like a program of some sort to participate in. It's not for everyone. But lots of people do enjoy it.

Carry on.....lol

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I don't see a Good honest way to do it. Look at the coon hounds today the nite hunt dogs . There is so much junk out there it's unbelievable. People can title dogs so easy by goin to small hunts where there mite only be a 2 or even 1 dog cast . Handlers n liars n cheaters put titles on dogs everyday. N the thing is the more titles the more they breed n the more junk that's out there. A lot people don't even know what a good hound is or what they are capable of. A lot of hounds people think are good cause of there titles I wounldnt even feed. Don't mean to get everyone riled up but this my opinion n I know a lot of true houndsmen feel the same way. I'll stick to catchin game to prove my hounds.

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quote:

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Originally posted by TBBLUE
I don't see a Good honest way to do it. Look at the coon hounds today the nite hunt dogs . There is so much junk out there it's unbelievable. People can title dogs so easy by goin to small hunts where there mite only be a 2 or even 1 dog cast . Handlers n liars n cheaters put titles on dogs everyday. N the thing is the more titles the more they breed n the more junk that's out there. A lot people don't even know what a good hound is or what they are capable of. A lot of hounds people think are good cause of there titles I wounldnt even feed. Don't mean to get everyone riled up but this my opinion n I know a lot of true houndsmen feel the same way. I'll stick to catchin game to prove my hounds.

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This was taken from the FCI rules for boar testing. It is interesting.

wild boar at fenced enclosure
1. Test can be performed all year with temperature not above 20 C and not under -20 C
2. Dogs have to be between 1 - 10 years old. Dogs of type laika, ....
3. Single dogs or two dogs regardless of breed or age. Tow dogs from one or two owners. Diploma given to a team of two dogs. In this test session dog can perform in one team only.
4. It has to be only one boar at fenced enclosure at least 100 kg weight.
5. Test performed in fenced forest not less than 4 hectares. Before the start boar released to the fenced area. Forest has to be of hard wood in middle age (forest age) has to have at some spots heavy bush or heavy covered with young trees. For referees safety has to have tree stands around.
6. At the test dogs guide can be inside fence to search together with the dog and send encourage command to start search. After dog finds boar guide has to follow referees instructions.
7. Before test dogs are test for a gun shyness from 30m to 50m distance. Gun shy dogs are not allow to participate in test.
8. 10 minutes are given to the dog or team of dogs to find boar. Time limit for dog or team for the work with a boar after boar was found is a choose of referees but not more then 15 minutes.
9. Dog or team disqualifies if
- not leaving guide to start search in 3 minutes
- after finding boar not showing willing to work, not chasing boar in 5 minutes
- working on bayed boar without barking in first 5 minutes
*** If dog or team bayed boar and hold him without barking in 5 minutes dog or team are not getting diploma
10. Tested skills are: sense (smell, hearing, sight), search, courage and malignancy, bark, how good dog "stays close, flowing" boar, quality of attack, dexterity, obedience and team work (for teams)
- sense - how well using smell, hearing, sight dog find boar
- search - speed dog moving with while searching, search range
- courage and malignancy - dogs behavior when dog seas boar and dogs reaction
- bark - loudness of barking, breedness (from breed), rate of return (guess echo)
- Âÿçêîñòü - how good dog "stays close, flowing" boar, barking
- quality of attack - way dog working close to boar and dogs behavior until guide is coming to shoot distance
- dexterity - swiftness and ease of movement while baying and attacking boar. How good dog or team can escape boars attacks
- obedience - sharp without declining obedience to guides commands
- team work - how well dogs work together, search together, come to a bark, helping each other in attack, helping each other when boar attacks

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Dpetty,

What imports were you referring to experiencing? Just curious as I have worked with a lot of foreign dog from different venues and one breed I raise is all of foreign blood.

Thanks for posting the rules. One of my good friends is a hunt association (equiv to our fish and game) biologist in Sweden and a few others hunt in Germany. The FCI tests are a huge part of breeding working dogs overseas. Most people here would cringe at requirements breed associations have and the use of breed wardens in other countries. Which is why importing is the way some of us die hard folks go to get that solid working drive.

Several friends in Germany do the FCI boar tests. In Sweden the law requires moose hunters to have access to a tracker dog w/i 2 hrs in case one is needed to trail a wounded moose (elk).

Anyway, it's nice to see somebody else who knows about what goes on overseas. They do have some very interesting rules and criteria. That is why they have been able to keep true to breed type and working ability in their dogs.

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i like the idea of htx for big game hounds. everyone has good points in their comments. your right, papers not mean everything, but working on and getting an htx degree would be fun and exciting for those houndsman who care about how the dog does and not about how much game you can kill. i also like the concept of it being solo, just like the coonhounds. a bear dog, "Bear Dog", not a dog that will run a bear, can do the job alone. no, not every bear trees, but having 40 head on it doenst necessarily make it tree either. there are alot of dogs that look like a million dollars when they are with a group or with a Bear Dog, take them out by themselves or remove the Bear Dog and they dont look near as good and your odds of jumping and treeing or them sticking a bear on the ground is slim.

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quote:

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Originally posted by todd kellam

We just need the right creative mind(s) to figure this out and it will be game on! I'm ready.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jackbob42
Well Todd , you could hire me as a UKC rep and I could travel around testing the dogs.
Around here , most hound groups don't like hunting with strangers. It would just be one buddy judging another.

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Starplott,

I have two types. One is the Jagdterrier and the other is the West Siberina Laika. The Jagdterrier crowd in the US are up a creek because there are no tests so often going outside the country or buying a pup from someone who has imports are your options for versatility. I have one American and one import. My female is American fine dog but not as versatile as the male. He can do it all from ground game, bear, hogs, water and upland game. He will do anything you want more high strung but very versatile. My female will work fur and hogs not a good retriever but she will tree game better small game big game they can see it so that is diferent. I just got into Laika and it was them that really made me think about testing even more. His family are all imported and having many tree dogs hounds, curs, and feist I never had a more natural tree dog. He was treeing wild squirrels and timbering them before he was four months. I posted video on Squirrel Dog Central because I figured people thought I was blowing smoke. I am no magic trainer he just did it like he was bred to do. I have a cur female that is a good prospect three months older making good progress but not even close to him. My next one I am going to fly it in from Russia.

Why I am very interested in this is not only to evaluate my own dogs but dogs I might want to breed to in the future. Also, in the Laika they are losing some tree do to not as much bear hunting and the Capercallie population is down. We in the US could be in great shape on the tree end in the future. Sorry got long winded just wnated to let guys know what my thoughts are.

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I've dealt w both, ling time ago. Jagd I has was import and one US bred several gen from import. (she, imp) was a nice dog. He on other hand was all grit, no brain, and no desire to please at all.

Most of my experience w the Laikas, has been the Karelians. That is how I ended up w my buddy in Sweden so many years ago. They use them in Sweden for moose hunting, as with other (bear and bird). He also kept a German wirehair as well. He'd always send me videos of the hunt tests.

I miss working w the Karelians. But between the police k9's, chessies, and hounds something had to give. All of my malinois are of working foreign blood.

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Starplott,

Yes you have your hands full. I debated on the Karelin when looking into the Laika. I was afraid of not getting enough tree in one so I went with the Laika.

Please look ever the translated elk and deer test and think if there is a way to do this for bear. It is from the Russian club I translated it the best I could. Before you think I did it my self I did it using google chrome. I sent it to your email.

I also included the link to a Laika board that you might find interesting.

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I'm more than aware of the FCI tests and rules. I sent you an email back, but will cover a few points for those who are not familiar with the problems we face with FCI testing formats being applied for big game. Currently in the US rabbit and bird hunt tests under FCI formats are up and running. Those are a whole different ball game in the states as the big game tests.

The FCI tests are AWESOME! FCI working tests and comps are one of the reasons (along w strict breeding programs few in US would adhere to) we have to go overseas to find dogs true to their breed standards in structure/health/type/drive/versatility.

The problem we run into in the states with FCI type tests for big game is more of a legal issue. How many states allow for hog bays? Very few. How many allow bear bays or even containment of bear? Even fewer. In addition states vary in hunting laws. Traveling out of state often requires expensive and or drawn licenses and permits.

We are now experiencing such issues out west even with nite hunts we are running into trying to find ways to be legal to comp hunt!

ID you have to draw for a NR hound permit, only 70 state wide per year, in order to attend a nite hunt if you are not a resident. To boot, that will run close to $300 before travel and entry fees.

Even in WA where where we have had comp hunts for a long time, we are being told EVERY participant must have a small game license to participate in a nite hunt, ESPECIALLY non residents. It use to be everybody was covered under the club field trial permit. Though laws have not changed, enforcement administration is changing their interpretation.

Even states where hog bays are not illegal...there still are laws that can be uses to make it so. Most states do not allow pitting any animal against another. They also have vague cruelty laws that can be used should enforcement of the day want to charge.

Until we change our perceptions in the US...nothing will change to be able to support such testing. As long as it is more acceptable to have dogs as lazy pets than it is to have true to the breed working dogs, we are going to continue fighting a losing battle to promote the ability to preserve our game hunting breeds beyond bird and rabbit dogs.

In this country the entitlement to breed what we want for any reason and the majority of the population viewing dogs as an extention of humans is not conducive to the preservation of true working breeds.

Even look at the certification of police k9's in this country. You can have lots of dogs pass cert, but to use real life testing for cert process, no way. Kind of like those that run greyhounds out here in field trials. How many can catch and tree a coon, cat, bear? Yet they can race the other dogs.... I've seen hundreds of dogs over the years that would bite a suit or sleeve that wouldn't think of biting a human in plain clothes. There's a huge difference in bite sport dogs and street dogs, even though certs cater to comp dogs giving false impressions they are street worthy. We may spend a couple months getting a comp dog to street ready, for those that are able to transition. A lot are just sporty comp dogs who can't take the pressure of street work.

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It's against the law in Utah to hold or release a coon from a cage. The Department of Agriculture covers the law and claim coons are non-native species that are to be eradicated and thus the law....

A couple years back a local conservation officer told me that he had busted my buddies recently for holding and transporting a caged coon--seems they didn't acquire a permit. It was their spring field trials with the bear drag stuff and the president of the local club was cited a ticket..........

Now, I doubt that very many hounddoggers that ever trained a hound in Utah hasn't broken that law........but that is the law. I remember years ago when I got into hounds and attempting to acquire a permit for a caged coon, which was little more than a nightmare. Nowdays all my dogs learn to run with the big dogs, and their first game animal is lion or bear. That means my pups have never been fired on game until they make it to their first bayup or tree which is legal...................

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